Sex work

[Sunat45degrees]

I have a very "liberal" BIL. The kind who prides himself on his liberal credentials, "life and let live" etc.

I won't lie, he's also the classic white middle aged man who thinks he has all the answers and is completely oblivious to his own privilege. So the type who thinks if something is theoretically true, then of course it is ACTUALLY true eg the gender pay gap isn't really a thing because women make choices to work in less well paid jobs and it just is that way, and obviously, because women would get paid equally for equal work, how could any of us have any issues? or "of course women can get promoted at the same level as men, if they're doing the work". Basically, I feel like he's not moved into any deeper understanding than I had when I was 18.

He's definitely the type who takes the liberal approach based on what I think of the "Hollywood" version - so in a movie, the transwoman 100% passes, would 100% be completely safe for other women, has 100% gone through a huge issue to get where she is so of course, we should consider her a woman. Or the woman who's struggling at work with the wanker boss always finds a way to overcome..... blah blahh blah.

Anyway, his latest, is about how selling your body is, of course, completely fine as long as there's no exploitation.

I have not particularly done a lot of reading or research on prostitution. What I've picked up is a general understanding that we can tell ourselves its "empowering" for women all we like but the reality is that for every women who sells her body and genuinely is in control there are hundreds or thousands who don't. So again, the hollywood version - feisty, independent sex worker making decisions about HER body that work for her is what he thinks it is MOST of the time.

I'm actively looking for resources as I clearly need to educate myself on this issue. But am here to shamelessly ask if anyone who is more knowledgeable can direct me - I just instinctively don't believe that most women are prostitutes by choice. I think even if it SEEMS like a choice, it quite often starts as something else?

Yes. But also,

"yuk Fred, the cognitive dissonance you have to go through to justify a man getting his cock wet for money is astounding"

"We get it Jeff, consent is bought and sold, not freely given in your mind. Let's hope you're never poor enough to have to suck off a Saudi businessman for rent."

"No need for women to actually enjoy sex, right? As long as men do."

"I'm a bit sick of you intellectualising women's trauma for men's pleasure Bob. I won't be arguing this again."

"You're bit invested in this Norm. I feel like you're getting off on talking about women's trauma. I won't be playing any more."

All with an eye roll and a sigh.

I have to say that what I normally say is, "when you've watched a woman go out to work, with red puffy eyes from crying, and track marks and she STILL finds lots of punters, you can come back and have a conversation with me. Then watch her inject her profit into her neck vein because the rest of them are blown. And have to have a conversation with her sister after she dies. Whether of an accidental or deliberate OD. Then we can 'debate'."

But then having worked with street level sex workers for decades, my tolerance is zero for rapist men.

'And I'm going to go reading more of Julie Bindel'

She's bloody marvellous. A seriously impressive woman who really cares, and had enormous strength and grit. Lots of interviews with her on YouTube too, she's a joy to listen to

Agree with all of this. Many studies on WHY women do this sort of work, most have been inappropriately sexualised at some me point in their life.

But why do you want to argue with this man? Surely the more infuriating thing for him is if you just shrug and say 'hmm isn't that interesting?'

Was the victim of CSE...I suppose when I was older I just went back to what I have always known.
It's hard to define true choice...in my experience there's definitely more people people involved in prostitution who have had a shitty and/or abusive upbringing than there would be in the general population.

I’d go for the patronising response to his BS, by tilting my head and saying ‘awww bless’ and then refusing to engage further.

he doesn’t sound like he’s interested at all in learning, expanding his knowledge. He’s not curious at all is he?

he’s a lost cause.

@MrsTerryPratchett these are all excellent suggestions

Why don't you go into a sex workers forum and ask them directly? Instead you're choosing to ask a very prejudiced anti sex work forum for their opinions.

Infested with pimps and apologists.

But you are right that the feminists of MN are often anti-sex work. NOTE WELL sex work not sex workers. Sex workers are my sisters. Punters are the scum they are forced to put up with. And pimps, well my thoughts are unprintable.

I wonder what the justification is for men having sex with women they KNOW would never consider having sex with them without money. I would never consider it. Good people don't want to have unwanted sex.

you're talking about that cesspit of punters and pimps called UK--- ing (not going to promote it). Please educate a little bit when it comes to real sex worker forums, try SAAFE. Or maybe you'd rather not ask grown up women about their chosen profession because it may contradict your own prejudiced narrative? Who knows.

It was a bad day for women when we started saying "sex worker" not "prostituted women". It allowed men to think of themselves as buying a service, not actively doing something to women.

On any thread on prostitution on MN you can guarantee there will be some posters (who often present themselves as female), who pop up to defend it as empowering or free choice in some way (eg. “chosen profession”, like it’s medicine or accountancy 😆)

We all know perfectly well, and don’t need reminding, why women don’t generally choose to be prostitutes unless they are in dire situations. The “Belle du Jour” fantasy is a fantasy — but that doesn’t stop it being a turn-on for some people (including some women); despite the reality that the actual lives of women who have to sell sex are not either glamorous or full of glorious autonomy and empowerment. Or we’d all be doing it. And we’re not.

@pleasedonotfeedme Absolutely. There are also the "paying her way through college" and the "she has a high sex drive" narratives. Similarly created to allow men to ignore any faint scruples they may have.

I'm sorry OP but I turned off at 'male privilege/white male' and 'educate'

He sounds tiresome.

Just keep your distance. You don't agree with his opinions. Neither do I as it happens. But they are his opinions. That's life.

Also Martina Keogh’s book Survivor

@penelopelondon I personally know many sex workers. I don't need online forums. I've worked with them for decades. In more than one country.

@Jalapenosplease
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

"We get it Jeff, consent is bought and sold, not freely given in your mind. Let's hope you're never poor enough to have to suck off a Saudi businessman for rent."

This is my favourite! Especially because I know he'd SAY that he would do it. hahahahaha.

One thing that is funny is that he likes to pontificate on social media but avoids a lot of this in person. Partly, I think, becuase he doesn't wnt to argue with me about stuff becuase he finds my views as repulsive as I find his. But there's a big part of me that thinks it's also because if he pontificates online he doesn't have to actually answer the tough questions and gets to "sound" smart. He has even been known to delete my challenges to some of his posts, but mostly he just ignores them!

'This is my favourite! Especially because I know he'd SAY that he would do it. hahahahaha.
One thing that is funny is that he likes to pontificate on social media but avoids a lot of this in person'

He really is a prize twerp, isn't he? What a sad little person

This is so validating for me because in DH's family, he is sort of held up as this paragon. And it's so weird. I don't want to go into even more detail but trust me when I say that his behaviour in the past, his position in life etc do not in any way, to any outsider, justify any of it.

You know how in families it cna be hard to move past whatever role is assigned to you in childhood? In DH's family, they take this to extremes. So him, and his siblings, are all treated at all times as if they are completely the same as they were when they were about 15. By everyone. And the bit that's even weirder about it is that no one pushes back, not even SIL who was a difficult teenager and is still treated as such and she's over 50 now!

'You know how in families it cna be hard to move past whatever role is assigned to you in childhood?'

God yes. It's the same in my family. Scapegoats and golden children and parents who can't really accept that their children are adults now. Very strange and dysfunctional

It looks like you're setting yourself up for failure by focusing more on proving this man wrong rather than understanding the actual facts. You seem to be caught in an ego battle, and those never end well. If I were you, I’d prioritise learning about the subject and avoid wasting time arguing with someone which is always such a waste of valuable time.

@YourBestFriend " If I were you, I’d prioritise learning about the subject "

I'm not the OP, but I do know plenty about the subject. Do you have questions?

well, I'm starting to learn about the subject with this post and with some of the recommended resources.

I don't think though that you have to be an expert to understand that its very unlikely that the vast bulk of women who sell sex are not doing it because its their dream job. If nothing else, this thread has reminded me that I don't need a bunch of facts or statistics but rather some common sense to apprecaite that the theoretical/intellectual belief that women have the right to sell their bodies if they want to comes up against the very practical consideration that "very very few women actively want to do so, so clearly there must be something else going on considering the prevalence of prostitution"

the theoretical/intellectual belief that women have the right to sell their bodies if they want to comes up against the very practical consideration that "very very few women actively want to do so, so clearly there must be something else going on considering the prevalence of prostitution"

Yes, likewise the belief in the right to buy someone's body for sex comes up against the reality that there are almost no female sex buyers. The right of men to buy is hardly ever discussed compared to the right of women to sell their bodies, probably because it is unpalatable and exposes the entitled and rapey nature of those men.

I'm always surprised that men who think prostitution is empowering aren't rushing to have friends who are sex workers, aren't open about using sex workers, don't recommend sex work as a career etc. Strange that.

I suspect if you dug deeper, they'd admit that it's not an "ideal" choice, but would still say that if a woman chooses that over, for example, minimum wage job as a dinner lady and that it therefore allows them to feed and clothe their children, then why should WE judge.

wankers.