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Feminism: chat

Sex work

157 replies

Sunat45degrees · 10/03/2025 14:13

I have a very "liberal" BIL. The kind who prides himself on his liberal credentials, "life and let live" etc.

I won't lie, he's also the classic white middle aged man who thinks he has all the answers and is completely oblivious to his own privilege. So the type who thinks if something is theoretically true, then of course it is ACTUALLY true eg the gender pay gap isn't really a thing because women make choices to work in less well paid jobs and it just is that way, and obviously, because women would get paid equally for equal work, how could any of us have any issues? or "of course women can get promoted at the same level as men, if they're doing the work". Basically, I feel like he's not moved into any deeper understanding than I had when I was 18.

He's definitely the type who takes the liberal approach based on what I think of the "Hollywood" version - so in a movie, the transwoman 100% passes, would 100% be completely safe for other women, has 100% gone through a huge issue to get where she is so of course, we should consider her a woman. Or the woman who's struggling at work with the wanker boss always finds a way to overcome..... blah blahh blah.

Anyway, his latest, is about how selling your body is, of course, completely fine as long as there's no exploitation.

I have not particularly done a lot of reading or research on prostitution. What I've picked up is a general understanding that we can tell ourselves its "empowering" for women all we like but the reality is that for every women who sells her body and genuinely is in control there are hundreds or thousands who don't. So again, the hollywood version - feisty, independent sex worker making decisions about HER body that work for her is what he thinks it is MOST of the time.

I'm actively looking for resources as I clearly need to educate myself on this issue. But am here to shamelessly ask if anyone who is more knowledgeable can direct me - I just instinctively don't believe that most women are prostitutes by choice. I think even if it SEEMS like a choice, it quite often starts as something else?

OP posts:
IamAporcupine · 26/04/2025 10:47

WilfredsPies · 24/04/2025 21:43

@JennyShaw Have you had a bad day? What’s wrong? Are you overly tired? Has someone annoyed you so you thought you’d have a fight with a random stranger on the internet? Or is it just that you’ve read a couple of books on prostitution and now want to show off how clever you are?

You have some strange ideas about what it is that sex workers do. Most sex workers don't do anal sex. Most sex workers do oral sex but it is with a condomI explained this earlier in the thread when I quoted what former sex worker Rachel Moran wrote in her book You’ve very literal, aren’t you, Jenny? No, I really don’t have any strange ideas about what they do. But he has a grand total of two orifices that the owner of a penis might be interested in and ‘put his mouth where his mouth is’ didn’t quite have the same ring to it. Not as eloquent as Rachel Moran, I’ll admit, but to be fair, I wasn’t writing a fucking book. And yes, you probably did explain it earlier in the thread, but I feel that you’ve got quite an unfortunate way of lecturing people rather than talking to them and I found myself getting quite irritated, so I simply moved on past your posts without reading them. I’m wishing you’d done the same with mine.

It doesn't make sense to say that someone has to want to do a job to be able to defend it. There are many jobs that we think are acceptable jobs but we don't do them. If you think that surrogate motherhood or organ donation is acceptable under the right circumstances that doesn't mean that you have to do it yourself before your argument is accepted. Very true, but since you’re clearly up for making some assumptions, with no need for a factual basis whatsoever, please allow me to join in. I don’t believe for a single minute that the OP’s BiL believes that prostitution is an acceptable job. I think it’s partly him enjoying riling women up and partly him wanting to show off his left wing credentials. I don’t think he’d date a prostitute, or be friends with a prostitute, not even one of your happy, successful ones with no regrets, and if his wife or daughter ever announced they were setting themselves up in business and asked him to hand out some business cards at the golf club, his little head would explode. As Rachel Moran says ‘Prostitution is not any sort of profession, never mind the oldest one’.

People who have done sex work and say they have no regrets are dismissed anyway by people like you. You don't listen to them, don't even want to understand what it is that they do People like me? Oh Jenny. I’m not really sure of the best way to respond to this. Part of me wants to just roll my eyes and not dignify it with a response. Part of me wants to laugh at how melodramatic you’re being and ask if you’re hoping to be headhunted for a job as a Hollyoaks scriptwriter, and part of me is starting to feel a tiny bit tetchy and inclined to give you the row you’re clearly wanting. Sadly, I’m procrastinating because I’ve still got some work to do, so the tetchy part is winning. Get your pig costume on Jen, let’s wrestle! I want to make it very, very clear to you that I have no feelings at all on people who have been prostitutes and who have no regrets. None at all. And you’re right, I don’t have any interest in listening to them and I have zero interest in what they do. Why would I? They’re fine with what they’ve done, they don’t need my support and why would I want to hear about the details of what they’ve done during the working day? I feel exactly the same way about people in financial services, insurance, accounting, vast swathes of the civil service and dentists. I don’t even want to understand what some of my colleagues do. My interest and support is reserved for the people who could really bloody do with it. Like victims of sexual exploitation, poverty and addiction, who don’t always have a choice about what happens to them. The ones who hate what they’ve have to do but have no choice. And those women might be a tiny number in your world, where it’s apparently all empowered career women who buy their PPE in posh knicker shops and quaff champagne all the way to the bank, but in my world, it’s the poor sods who need help, support and understanding without judgement. They’re the ones I want to hear from. All I’m hearing from you is arrogance, privilege and other people’s opinions.

Some feminist authors are obsessed with prostitution, others don't mention it at all. So to say that any feminist will support your argument is not true I’m assuming you’re reading two threads at once and are getting confused over who said what, because a) I wasn’t actually making an argument. I was merely agreeing with the OP that her BiL is a bit of a twat, who would probably enjoy explaining to a feminist how she was doing feminism wrong, and b) I don’t believe that I ever suggested that anyone, feminist or otherwise, would support anything I think or say. I don’t presume to speak for anyone else when voicing my own opinion.

She starts one paragraph by writing "There should be no shame in sex work" which shows on which side of the fence she is on this issue. She also mentions prostitution in the context of poverty and slavery. There is nothing in either of these two books to say that prostitution in itself is something that needs to be eliminated to achieve female emancipation And that’s lovely, but so what? I don’t believe anyone died and made her the final word on the ethics of prostitution, but if that’s how she feels, then good for her. Now, what point are you trying to make? Because you’ve spent ages telling us all what anyone who has ever written a book on the subject has said, but you’ve said precious little reflecting your own opinion.

Are you suggesting that I think prostitution is shameful? Because I absolutely don’t. I’m not judging anyone who does it, either by choice, circumstance and certainly not anyone who has been forced into it. My judgement is reserved solely for the men who are happy to visit a prostitute in the knowledge that there’s a chance he could be raping her.

Can I just say how much I enjoyed this reply?! 💯😅

IamAporcupine · 26/04/2025 11:52

@JennyShaw I have no problem admitting that I haven't read a single book on prostitution. Even more, up until recently I was not aware of the different 'models' and of course do not have enough knowledge to argue re which one is better and/or can really be implemented etc etc

But I have a 13 yo boy and I hate that he is growing up in a society that allows men to think that women are commodities and sexual consent can be bought.

Do you have children?
What do you think about this?

WilfredsPies · 26/04/2025 13:32

@JennyShaw

It's interesting that people who use this idiom never consider that they might be the pig 😂 Well, in this instance, you pounced on a perfectly innocent comment I made to someone else, blew it out of all proportion and decided to argue with me about things I didn’t actually say. You let your imagination run away with you and you made things up Jen. And, then when I clarified my actual opinions and my reasons for not prioritising the feelings and experiences of women who are perfectly happy with their choices, over actual victims, you have ignored what I’ve said and decided to concentrate on yourself and the way I’ve responded to you. So, in this particular scenario, I’m happy that you’re the pig.

What do you think that people who read this thread will think about you? No idea. Maybe that I don’t have the patience to be kind to someone who was being a dickhead to me for absolutely no reason? It’s not really any of my business what anyone else thinks of me. Did you think I was a bit rude? Are you suggesting that I should have replied to your post with kindness? Should I have apologised for saying things I didn’t say? Just so nobody thought I was being mean to you? Yeah, fuck that for a game of soldiers. Do you want to answer the same question? (That’s rhetorical, I know you won’t be able to help yourself)

You're very patronizing, 'getting quite irritated' and rolling your eyes 😂 You’ve got a brass neck, I’ll give you that! All patronising on my part was completely intentional. I’ll be honest, I actually ramped it up a bit especially for you. You came at me, remember? I replied in exactly the same tone you used with me. I’m struggling to understand how you’ve got to adulthood without learning that if you talk to someone like an arsehole, they’re going to reply in the same way.

You accuse me of lecturing people. It is very important that people have the facts. When people repeat false statistics then I am going to be pointing that out to them. I know that makes you irritated and want to roll your piggy eyes Aww Jen, now that’s just being hurtful. I have lovely eyes. They’re one of my best features. But I believe I actually said something about you lecturing people rather than talking to them. It’s not what you said that I found irritating, it’s the way you said it. And that might not bother anyone else on the thread. But I found it irritating, which was why I chose to simply scroll past your posts without reading anything you’d said. I also don’t understand how you can digest so many books to the point of being able to recite facts from them long after you’ve read them, and clearly feel strongly that false stats must be corrected, yet you’re having difficulty in sticking to the facts of what I actually said.

You say you are interested in victims of sexual exploitation, the ones who don't go to 'posh knicker shops' (and you accuse me of being melodramatic!) Matching your energy Jen. Maybe we can get that Hollyoaks job together?

Let's take, as an example, a Chinese national in Britain selling sex. Is she being exploited? She has been working in a garment factory in China. She knows that if she had a few thousand pounds in the bank she could leave the factory and start her own business. She has a friend who has done this. She knows another woman who bought a car. They have no regrets I have a sneaky feeling that this hypothetical Chinese national will have a back story that you’ll reveal to me once you’ve got my reply, but I’ll play along. Simple answer, I have absolutely no idea. I don’t assume. If she’s perfectly happy, doesn’t have PTSD, did it willingly and stopped the second she wanted to, then who am I to say she’s been exploited? And why would I need to hear anything more about her work? Is she happy she did it? Yes. Does she need support? No. That’s the point I lose interest and don’t want to know anymore. Why are you making unfounded assumptions about my opinions because I’m more interested in centering the vulnerable women who do need support, or who do have regrets?

Why am I bothering to tell you this? That’s a question that only you can answer Jen. I’ll happily admit that I have no idea why you’re continuing to try and goad me into an argument about something I didn’t say and about opinions I don’t hold. You've already told me that you don't want to know. You're not interested And yet, you persist?! I know how important accuracy is to you, so if we could keep to the facts of what I actually said, as well as the context I said it in, that would be lovely. I didn’t say that I wasn’t interested in the topic. I said I wasn’t interested in hearing about the thoughts and experiences of prostitutes who are perfectly happy doing what they do. In the same way I’m not interested in an accountant telling me about all the receipts they’ve had to go through that day. Do you understand now I’ve explained it again? Because, if not, then you’re just going to have to let it go because I’m really not sure how much clearer I can make it.

I could tell you about the research by Ko-lin Chin or Elizabeth Pisani into Chinese sex workers working abroad. You would accuse me of just reading a couple of books. No one could accuse you of having done that. I have read many books about the various forms of prostitution in different parts of the world and I have other knowledge of prostitution in one part of the world, Soho Again with the hurtfulness Jen! I might start taking it personally if you continue. And the showing off? This isn’t your CV. You don’t need to list your knowledge and experience in the subject. If you weren’t so difficult to talk to, I’d be happy to have a conversation with you about it even if you’d never read about it or come within a million miles of it. But you are quite right; you have very clearly read far more books on the subject than I have. Rachel Moran’s book is actually on my ‘to read’ list but, in general, I prefer a good murder mystery. Sadly, my knowledge of the subject is not quite as academic. Talking to victims of trafficking and listening to things I wouldn’t want anyone else to hear, let alone go through. I could tell you about the women who thought they were coming to work in a factory and found themselves being raped in a brothel. Or women who thought they were coming to start a new life with their boyfriend, only to discover that they weren’t in a loving relationship after all and he’d simply viewed her as a commodity he could sell on. So, perhaps unsurprisingly, I’m not really up for reading about it when I get home, or listening to tales of women who have come out of it completely unscathed and are ready to recommend it as a career option. So don’t you dare fucking lecture me about your research and your knowledge of Soho, because it strikes me that all of that learning has taught you fuck all about the women who are victims of exploitation. Or does it not suit your ‘happy hooker’ narrative to consider them?

I’m absolutely positive that you’re going to come back at me with some long winded response full of absolute bollocks, because you strike me as the sort of person who feels a need to browbeat people into simply acknowledging that you’re right and they’re wrong, simply to get you to leave them alone. Let me save you the trouble; I’m going to treat it in exactly the same way as I did your earlier posts and simply scroll on past without reading it. I refuse to engage in this nonsensical argument with you any further. Now if you have a shred of respect for anyone else, you will stop derailing the thread and leave me the fuck alone please.

northwestgirl · 26/04/2025 18:34

OP, why am I not at all surprised to hear your update about the BIL

MistyGreenAndBlue · 28/04/2025 13:37

pleasedonotfeedme · 16/03/2025 18:38

@penelopelondon

One thing I have never seen addressed by pro-decrim feminists is that it only really works to say there should be no stigma to sex work, and women shouldn’t be judged for doing it, if you think most women doing it are doing it because they are in dire straits, and haven’t other choices.

The flipside of the idea of “sex work is work” is that if women are freely choosing to do this, why shouldn’t they be adversely judged? If it’s considered a free choice, why shouldn’t women who do it be regarded harshly? After all, you are breaking up relationships and families, offering men a chance to harm other women in their lives, and participating in and providing a market that harms other women and children, and encourages deceit, disease, trafficking and pimping of other women. (I know of quite a few families, and women’s and children’s lives, which have been horribly damaged by husbands and fathers buying sex. You okay with facilitating that? I wouldn’t be, myself.) You might not be trafficked, but other women (and children) are. You might not be exploited on the street; but you are part of a “business sector” that does do that.

I don’t have to be religious or prudish to think sex work is a social evil. It demonstrably isn’t just a market like any other. It’s more akin to selling vapes, tobacco, arms dealing, gambling shops or illegal drugs. In fact, dealing drugs is probably the closest analogy. A few people make a decent living from it and are doing it freely, but it’s a social evil that damages other people, families and communities beyond measure.

If, as you say, women are freely choosing to sell sex, they are then subject to the same moral judgments as anyone would be who makes their living selling anything that is a social evil. Is that really what you want out of this argument? Because the vast majority of people don’t believe prostitution is wrong because of some kind of pre-modern religious belief in women’s purity. They believe it’s wrong because (a) sex is not a commodity; and (b) prostitution causes, and is part of, many terrible social wrongs and networks of exploitation.

You want to be recognised as having agency? You then have to accept the attendant moral judgment. If you want to go the “sex work is work and women choose it” route, you’ll have to put up with being judged as someone who has chosen to do work that benefits you, but is selfish and morally harmful, whether it’s legal (like selling vapes, cigs, gambling cards and arms to Iran); or illegal (like drug trafficking).

This is the logical outcome you want, no? To be thought of as someone who deliberately sells something they know is antisocial and harmful, but doesn’t care?

Doesn’t seem like a good argument for prostitution to me; but there you go.

Edited

These are my thoughts on the subject too. Thank you for articulating it so well.

JennyShaw · 30/04/2025 11:15

IamAporcupine · 26/04/2025 11:52

@JennyShaw I have no problem admitting that I haven't read a single book on prostitution. Even more, up until recently I was not aware of the different 'models' and of course do not have enough knowledge to argue re which one is better and/or can really be implemented etc etc

But I have a 13 yo boy and I hate that he is growing up in a society that allows men to think that women are commodities and sexual consent can be bought.

Do you have children?
What do you think about this?

Men in Britain don't think that women are commodities. Your son will become aware that there are women who provide a service for payment. If he is foolish enough to believe that he can walk into a room and do anything he wants to a sex worker then he will learn pretty quickly that this is not the case, whatever his mum has mumsplained to him.

He will be told that everything is the result of negotiation. If he wants oral sex he can have that and it will be a condom. If he wants it without a condom then he will have to pay extra but it won't be CIM. If he doesn't know what that means it will be explained to him.

If he wants anal sex he will be told that this will not be possible, but if he looks around on the internet for long enough he will probably find someone who specializes in it but it will be a lot more money.

As for sexual consent, I don't see sexual consent as different from other forms of consent. You do, of course, but where you have a financial transaction between two individuals it should be up to them. Your feelings on the matter aren't more important than theirs.

You can make an argument that sex is different from any other form of pleasure. I have seen those arguments and they don't persuade me. It also strikes me that the argument for attempting to eliminate sex work through arresting people is totally dependent on trying to create a false link between sex work and slavery.

There is something called modern slavery but it isn't restricted to prostitution. There are people who understand how to deal with it, like Emily Kenway. We should be listening to people like her.

JennyShaw · 30/04/2025 11:38

@WilfredsPies

"Sadly, my knowledge of the subject is not quite as academic. Talking to victims of trafficking and listening to things I wouldn’t want anyone else to hear, let alone go through. I could tell you about the women who thought they were coming to work in a factory and found themselves being raped in a brothel. Or women who thought they were coming to start a new life with their boyfriend, only to discover that they weren’t in a loving relationship after all and he’d simply viewed her as a commodity he could sell on."

I mentioned Angela Saini as an example of a feminist author who doesn't share your views about sex work. She is well aware of coercion in different parts of the world and gives good examples of it in her book The Patriarchs. Probably better examples of extreme cruelty that you are aware of.

She doesn't make the mistake though of thinking that this is the reality of prostitution. There are many realities of prostitution. We create these realities by the laws that we support. The reality of prostitution in Britain is different from the reality of prostitution in Ireland. This has become increasingly clear when we see from the review of the Nordic model in Ireland published last month showing that it has failed.

Angela Saini is interested in all forms of coercion in history and in the modern world and not just when it involves sex. She is more likely to understand the solutions to these problems. Even more someone like Emily Kenway who is an expert on this subject.

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