Sex work

[Sunat45degrees]

I have a very "liberal" BIL. The kind who prides himself on his liberal credentials, "life and let live" etc.

I won't lie, he's also the classic white middle aged man who thinks he has all the answers and is completely oblivious to his own privilege. So the type who thinks if something is theoretically true, then of course it is ACTUALLY true eg the gender pay gap isn't really a thing because women make choices to work in less well paid jobs and it just is that way, and obviously, because women would get paid equally for equal work, how could any of us have any issues? or "of course women can get promoted at the same level as men, if they're doing the work". Basically, I feel like he's not moved into any deeper understanding than I had when I was 18.

He's definitely the type who takes the liberal approach based on what I think of the "Hollywood" version - so in a movie, the transwoman 100% passes, would 100% be completely safe for other women, has 100% gone through a huge issue to get where she is so of course, we should consider her a woman. Or the woman who's struggling at work with the wanker boss always finds a way to overcome..... blah blahh blah.

Anyway, his latest, is about how selling your body is, of course, completely fine as long as there's no exploitation.

I have not particularly done a lot of reading or research on prostitution. What I've picked up is a general understanding that we can tell ourselves its "empowering" for women all we like but the reality is that for every women who sells her body and genuinely is in control there are hundreds or thousands who don't. So again, the hollywood version - feisty, independent sex worker making decisions about HER body that work for her is what he thinks it is MOST of the time.

I'm actively looking for resources as I clearly need to educate myself on this issue. But am here to shamelessly ask if anyone who is more knowledgeable can direct me - I just instinctively don't believe that most women are prostitutes by choice. I think even if it SEEMS like a choice, it quite often starts as something else?

I once knew a man who thought women should be particularly grateful that some other women chose to be prostitutes because otherwise there would be far more rapes-men's needs being what they are....

Do you work for MAGA or Donald, you're using liberal as a very derogatory term😢

This was a common myth years ago, however, it has since been proved that the more a man uses prostituted women the more likely he is to rape, abduct and murder women and girls. I have posted about this recently on another thread.
The term 'sex worker' is ridiculous, they are not working in an office with annual leave and a pension plan.

The idea that 'good' women should be willing to sacrifice 'bad' women on the alter of male violence is repugnant on all the levels.

Even if it worked, which is the converse of the truth.

As I said before, these women are our sisters.

I won't use the term "sex worker". I remember when it became the right on term and like many other progressive thinking people I embraced it- but we hadn't thought it through. I now say "prostituted women" for want of a better term.

I struggle because I agree. But I also know women who prefer that term for themselves so I vacillate and have splinters in my arse.

I guess it might encompass activities that are short of prostitution, stripping, cam work etc

I feel a little sick just reading that.

Men like my BIL consider themselves 'liberal'. I don't.

"The term 'sex worker' is ridiculous, they are not working in an office with annual leave and a pension plan."

Have a look at Belgium, which decriminalised sexwork in 2022 thanks to a campaign led by a former sexworker Sonia Verstappen.

https://www.discoveringbelgium.com/belgium-sex-workers-rights/

Decriminalisation is the model advocated for by Amnesty Int, World Health Org, and other human rights/health/anti-trafficking and sexworker orgs local and international.

Every thread about sex work, there you are.

I wouldn't believe you if you said water was wet.

You don't care one iota for women's rights so I don't know why you hang out here.

Nice debating skills.

"You disagree with me on x and y that means you don't care about women's rights."

I have sources too to backup what I post
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/05/amnesty-international-publishes-policy-and-research-on-protection-of-sex-workers-rights/

"Amnesty International joins a large group of organisations from across a range of disciplines and areas of expertise who are supporting or calling for decriminalization of consensual sex work.
These include the Global Alliance Against Traffic in Women; Global Commission on HIV and the Law; Human Rights Watch; UNAIDS; the UN Special Rapporteur on the Right to Health; and World Health Organization."

Nice debating skills.

Women's trauma isn't up for debate.

Why are you interacting with this boring old buffoon?
Expecting you to organise dates with your friend for him and your sister to get him a job.
He sounds like someone I would avoid like the plague.
Obnoxious, pompous, ass.

There’s a very persistent poster who always turns up on any thread about this issue to argue that prostitution is wonderful and just so empowering!

If you are looking for resources it is important that you see both sides of the debate. There are many female authors who have contributed to our understanding of prostitution.

Revolting Prostitutes by Juno Mac and Molly Smith
The Truth about Modern Slavery by Emily Kenway
The Right to Sex by Amia Srinivasan

Most people won't have heard of these authors. They probably have heard though of Helena Kennedy QC. She writes about prostitution and the law in her book Eve Was Shamed. None of these authors are saying that prostitution is empowering. They are all saying though that prohibition doesn't work and harms women.

If you want an academic study the best one on the subject of prohibition in Sweden the best one is Prostitution in Sweden 2014 The extent and development of prostitution in Sweden by Endrit Mujaj and Amanda Netscher (Länsstyrelsen 2015). It gives all of the figures from surveys conducted before and after the prohibition law in 1999. It shows that the amount of prostitution did not decrease after the 1999 law.

In this country Professor Belinda Brooks-Gordon is a good source of information.

There was a very interesting documentary on prostitution in Nevada by Stacey Dooley (Stacey Dooley Sleeps Over USA S2 E1 ∙ The Brothel) available to watch. Julie Bindel also went to Nevada. When she got back she told everyone that she had found 'learning disabled women' who had been 'double pimped'. That wasn't the truth though, she found one learning disabled woman who she called Sindy, who had not been double pimped. One too many of course, but people who are ideologically motivated distort the truth.

We have indeed heard of all of these authors, because they are always posted on threads about prostitution by poster/s vested in the idea that decriminalising prostitution is somehow a good thing/a “right”/better than the Nordic model/better for “sex workers” because market forces/etc. etc.

For example, Srinivasan’s book is a bit of fluff, over-hyped and by an author with no real social research in the field. She’s a analytic philosopher, not a social scientist; and The Right to Sex consists of rather flimsy but modish arguments based on uninterrogated ideas drawn from contemporary “intersectional” feminism, for example in gender ideology. It’s about as far from evidence based work on prostitution as you can get. Plus, she hasn’t either got a background in continental philosophy or a serious understanding of feminist history, so it’s just some polemical thought-essays that are actually quite unchallenging in their conclusions.

A poster always brings up Srinivasan and Belinda Brooks-Gordon et al. on these threads. As if none of us had read their posts about the same authors before!

As a point of information-I have read those authors too. Not sure why you think we won’t have done, @JennyShaw

He’s a misogynist. Honestly, I wouldn’t get into the depths of a discussion about sex work with him, and certainly wouldn’t bother to ‘educate myself’ with facts and figures to argue back. At most I’d point out isn’t it interesting how all his views support male privilege (in an ‘isn’t this tiresome?’ tone) and then not engage any further.

If you want to know what sex workers think go ask them, end off. Stop listening to your misogynistic uncle or to the "mumsnet feminists", seriously... just go and ask sex workers themselves. You lot are operating exactly like the patriarchy and infantilizing these women because "you know better".

Start treating grown up women like grown up women FFS.

I replied to you earlier and said that I personally know many sex workers. Over decades and in more than one country. Everyone from teenage rent boys to pregnant street sex working women.

You assume it’s not possible to hate the trade and also think of the women as sisters. I’d argue that hating the trade is PART of knowing and loving sex workers. You can’t hear the ‘bad date’ stories and feel anything other than revulsion for the punters and empathy for the workers.

It’s possible to have an ethical and political opinion on something without treating it like the only possible way to form one is to conduct a stakeholder focus group.

It’s okay to think that sex for money is wrong. This isn’t infantilising anyone. It’s absolutely fine to believe that women’s bodies should not be for sale without asking anyone if that’s an okay opinion to hold.

I've been a sex worker half of my life (I'm late 40's) so don't patronize me. I've never worked the streets either, in the western world only a very few engage in street prostitution, not only is illegal but incredible dangerous, the rest of us (normal folk) work from home, just like half of the women here, we're not pimped or drug addicts, fact is we've probably bumped each other at Tesco a couple of times, but because I look quite normal and plain you probably haven't look at me twice.

https://endsexualexploitation.org/

Articles may help here?

@penelopelondon

One thing I have never seen addressed by pro-decrim feminists is that it only really works to say there should be no stigma to sex work, and women shouldn’t be judged for doing it, if you think most women doing it are doing it because they are in dire straits, and haven’t other choices.

The flipside of the idea of “sex work is work” is that if women are freely choosing to do this, why shouldn’t they be adversely judged? If it’s considered a free choice, why shouldn’t women who do it be regarded harshly? After all, you are breaking up relationships and families, offering men a chance to harm other women in their lives, and participating in and providing a market that harms other women and children, and encourages deceit, disease, trafficking and pimping of other women. (I know of quite a few families, and women’s and children’s lives, which have been horribly damaged by husbands and fathers buying sex. You okay with facilitating that? I wouldn’t be, myself.) You might not be trafficked, but other women (and children) are. You might not be exploited on the street; but you are part of a “business sector” that does do that.

I don’t have to be religious or prudish to think sex work is a social evil. It demonstrably isn’t just a market like any other. It’s more akin to selling vapes, tobacco, arms dealing, gambling shops or illegal drugs. In fact, dealing drugs is probably the closest analogy. A few people make a decent living from it and are doing it freely, but it’s a social evil that damages other people, families and communities beyond measure.

If, as you say, women are freely choosing to sell sex, they are then subject to the same moral judgments as anyone would be who makes their living selling anything that is a social evil. Is that really what you want out of this argument? Because the vast majority of people don’t believe prostitution is wrong because of some kind of pre-modern religious belief in women’s purity. They believe it’s wrong because (a) sex is not a commodity; and (b) prostitution causes, and is part of, many terrible social wrongs and networks of exploitation.

You want to be recognised as having agency? You then have to accept the attendant moral judgment. If you want to go the “sex work is work and women choose it” route, you’ll have to put up with being judged as someone who has chosen to do work that benefits you, but is selfish and morally harmful, whether it’s legal (like selling vapes, cigs, gambling cards and arms to Iran); or illegal (like drug trafficking).

This is the logical outcome you want, no? To be thought of as someone who deliberately sells something they know is antisocial and harmful, but doesn’t care?

Doesn’t seem like a good argument for prostitution to me; but there you go.