Does anyone feel like they have gone too far with gender critical?

[Francine83]

I have been really interested in lots of the gender critical ideas and have read a lot. I deeply share a lot of the very real feminist concerns. But does anyone ever feel that they went a bit far with some of these ideas? I know a lot of us have been exploring these ideas for a while now and I'm interested to hear how things have evolved for people. I would really welcome a reasonable and genuine chat about this.

And still no sign of the OP. Just up for a chat. What a load of bollox.

No.

Are you for real? Female boxers don't want to be punched in the face by a man, which is what imane is

I used to think this but there's a difference between a man wearing 'feminine' styles (a floral, floaty blouse, glitter nail polish, etc) and forcing people to take part in a sex fantasy where they're wearing fake breasts and acting out being a woman for a sexual thrill. However, I do accept that if someone, male or female wants to go out in fetish gear that's their right unless they're outraging public decency. I feel sorry for the poor shop assistants who have to deal with them though.

He failed sex testing.

He knows he's a man as does the IOC.

To be honest I find your views disturbing. Despite sex testing you side with a man who has decided to punch women rather than the woman?

You're not a feminist of any sort.

IK is male with a dsd which means he has internal testes, went through male puberty and has male levels of testosterone. A report to this effect was leaked recently. However sorry you feel for someone who has a chromosomal disorder he still shouldn't be allowed to punch women in the head. Males punch harder and women have less resilient bones in their skull. This is a recipe for catastrophic physical damage.

In 10 years time do we look back at this sad time when men hitting women is an Olympic sport...do we know it was wrong, OR
are no women winning any awards as it's just the male category and the males who call themselves women category?
Remember be kind to men!!

I don't think I have gone too far. Although you don't know how for I have gone, so I don't see how this information is helpful to you, but you're welcome to it!

It depends, I have different views based on situation and circumstances. I know deeply unhappy children who have flourished since living with another name and wearing different clothes, and I think it would be hard to deny their happiness is due to 'transitioning' (whatever that means). It would be damaging to pretend that there aren't young transmen who feel great relief at being able to shed the label of 'woman' and all that goes with it. But that is a symptom of the institutional sexual abuse, and patriarchy.

I do not feel the same about late transitioning men who usually have taken advantage of their privilege in terms of career and getting some poor woman to have their children, only to 'come out' at 48.
Deep down, I feel this is white men's last attempt to claim power back. Because being a white man in the world doesn't mean what it used to. There are women and global majority men who can do three times what they can, and have families too.
Consciously or not, the white men of this world have realised that coming out as trans is the ultimate 'uno reverse' card. It trumps race, gender, religion etc on the 'hard done by' stakes and no one seems to realise that they have already had their privilege quota.

Transwomen have had a very different life to me. They have probably faced hardship I haven't and may have had years of being unhappy and ashamed, I wouldn't claim to know what they have been through.
But they have also not lived mine. Had men look at you as a sexual object since age 9 onwards. Had two children in a shit system with about two pence spent on maternity. Never did I feel like such a walking, dribbling uterus on legs as I did when I was pregnant and post partum. That is why I'm GC.

No. I am happy to describe myself as a gender abolitionist.

Hasn’t gone far enough. Still far too many “be kind” people, people using wrong sex pronouns, kids being transitioned in their thousands across the world.

I know deeply unhappy children who have flourished since living with another name and wearing different clothes

Freeing children from the shackles of nonsense gender stereotypes should be celebrated. Instead they’re told they’re successfully fulfilling the nonsense gender stereotypes of the opposite sex. This makes them happy, but for the wrong reasons.

If it stopped there the harm would be minimised. But then they’re told they’ll be even happier if they modify their bodies too. They won’t, of course, and the harm is significant.

Well I’m shocked, shocked I tell you, that the OP didn’t return and amazingly wasn’t up for having a discussion

Freeing children from the shackles of nonsense gender stereotypes should be celebrated. Instead they’re told they’re successfully fulfilling the nonsense gender stereotypes of the opposite sex. This makes them happy, but for the wrong reasons.

this all day long.

Rejecting gender stereotypes - genuinely - without trying to physically approximate the opposite sex or pretend there are other sex categories carries various risks: not needing to purchase the same toy again but in pink/ blue; possibility of wearing hand me downs; no need to block natural puberty; no need for surgeries and medication to look like the opposite sex.

Won't somebody think of capitalism?

I must admit it did give me pause for thought when I saw a Trump supporter being interviewed on Sky, in Philadelphia I think, who said she was voting for him because otherwise “they” will cut off my sons’ penises and make them in to girls!

😧

Why did that give you pause for thought?

Not mutilating and sterilising gay and autistic kids won't be the only thing that Trump agrees with you on.

Personally, it strengthens my resolve. The UK is not (yet) USA.

https://deadwildroses.com/2019/10/07/handy-venn-diagrams-the-radical-feminist-position-on-gender/

USA is stuck with only the red and the yellow circles. You can see that both the democrats and the republicans believe in gender stereotypes. They just differ in their approach. Trump would have you alter your personality to match your sex. Harris would have you alter your body (sex) to match your personality.

Being gender critical means a big FUCK THAT to both ideas. The green circle represents the only approach that doesn't centre men, that offers any hope of freedom for women.

Under the green circle, trans people would be accepted entirely as who they actually are. The only thing that would differ would be no pretence that they had changed sex or become a third sex. So no deception and no boundary violation. But also no cruel pressure to pass and no rejection for not conforming to stereotypes that match their sex.

The thing is that 'gender abolitionist' and 'I don't see colour' come from the same mantra of thought, the idea that you, as a person, operate completely independently to society, when we all know that's bullshit. It's like you're denying the existence of racism. Society will try to define gender so even if yourself don't acknowledge gender or race, or feel that it impacts very little of your core values, beliefs, history, it means a lot to others and so it becomes a reality, rather than a social construct.
I want to be a woman. I feel powerful as a mixed ethnicity woman. I don't think I want to live in a world without gender, I want to live in a world without limitation, assumption and harassment based on my gender.

I think you are confusing sex and gender.

Gender is the limitation and assumption. Harassment is the outcome.

I want to live in a world without limitation, assumption and harassment based on my gender.

Gender is that, based on your sex (or perceived sex.

Yes. There is nothing positive about gender as a concept as far as I can see. It’s all the crap that is dumped on people (mainly women) because of our sex.

But you can't just get rid of a millennia of discrimination, hatred and abuse like that. You can't. The likening of it to the abolition of slavery is frankly a terrible analogy, as slavery was an act done to someone. Whether you believe in gender (not sex and I'm aware of the difference) or not, it has been the reason why we have been treated differently since the dawn of time.
There is a power that has arisen from this persecution. There is a resilience and an awareness that women have which comes from hearing from our grandmothers and elders about their experiences. There is no eliminating it. It remains as true today as it has ever been.
By eliminating gender, you do all of our children and grandchildren a disservice. You cannot eradicate thousands of years of shared persecution, injustice, inequality and trauma like that. Because that's no different to someone who was Tim yesterday saying they're a woman today.
Let's work on stopping all the negative aspects and crimes committed against us BECAUSE of our gender, but let's not pretend we can get rid of gender.

As others are saying, in gender critical feminism,(1) Sex is the name for the immutable fact of the body, while Gender is the limiting social constructs layered on top of it.

So 'gender abolitionist' is not the same as 'I don't see colour'. It's more like anti-racism.

Firstly, because it is challenging the limiting social constructs around the physical fact of sex, and secondly, because it's not ignoring the impact of sex or gender on our lives by pretending they don't exist, it's highlighting gender as something significant and damaging that should be got rid of

The "I don't see colour" line of thinking aligns more with the genderist belief that body sex is an irrelevant detail that has no significance or relevence to people's experiences and outcomes and so there is no basis for sex-specific rights or support.

(1) to be clear, this used to be just mainstream feminism - it is only since the idea took hold with some feminists that trans women are literal women, and with that the need to "respect" gender as superceding sex, that the label Gender Critical was coined

Crimes (I assume you mean VAWG here) are committed because of our sex, because we are female, not because of our gender.

Of course we want rid of gender, why would we not want the source of our oppressed eliminated?

Sex is the reason.
Gender is the means.