Does anyone feel like they have gone too far with gender critical?

[Francine83]

I have been really interested in lots of the gender critical ideas and have read a lot. I deeply share a lot of the very real feminist concerns. But does anyone ever feel that they went a bit far with some of these ideas? I know a lot of us have been exploring these ideas for a while now and I'm interested to hear how things have evolved for people. I would really welcome a reasonable and genuine chat about this.

Yeah i do think it's possible to go so far that you're not actually gender critical anymore, you actually start to look askance at any man who doesn't comply with manly stereotypes - some seem to think a man wearing feminine clothes and wearing make up is fair game for ridicule

that's just being a wanker though. Genuinely gender critical people don't give a stuff about manly stereotypes (or any other gendered stereotypes). That is the entire point.

Being critical of gender is foundational feminist stuff.

And, no, I'm not even sure it's possible to go to far in criticising the mechanism of women's subordination.

@Francine83 You said "I have been really interested in lots of the gender critical ideas and have read a lot. I deeply share a lot of the very real feminist concerns." ... can you share some of the ideas that interest you and the concerns you share? It would be really helpful to have some contedxt to your understanding of gender critical.

Reading between the lines, it seems you are concerned you may have gone a bit far. Can you explain what you are worried about? I would really welcome a reasonable and genuine chat about this.

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No. For me, the issues over women's safety and rights and equality in sport etc, though massively important, are secondary to the massive glaring fact that nobody can change sex. Referring to a man as a woman is quite simply a lie. I don't understand why the law indulges fictions like this. I have no problem with a man wearing a dress and changing his name to Brenda. I have a big problem with him expecting anyone else to believe that makes him a woman, regardless of how harmless or gentle he may be.

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Which bit is too far for you? I'm still happy to say that whilst biology is real and immutable gender is made up nonsense. And as gender is made up, mostly from sex stereotypes, the claim that anyone has an innate gender identity is at best a religious belief. Forcing that on everyone else is completely unacceptable.

In response to the OP question, as some very wise lyricists said...
No, no, no, no, no, no, no no, no no no
There's no limit.

And repeating @Brefugee s very salient point.
Genuinely gender critical people don't give a stuff about manly stereotypes (or any other gendered stereotypes). That is the entire point.

But does anyone ever feel that they went a bit far with some of these ideas?

What are the ideas?

I’m interested too in what you mean by ‘going a bit too far’.

Fwiw I’m GC.
But I’m not as strict as some posters are here.

Yep, the OP's post does have a certain style. Hopefully @Francine83 will come back to the thread to prove that suspician wrong.

If it is a bot thread I do wonder what the point is though. It triggers some well argued posts and helps us refine our arguments.

I assume you mean something other than "being critical of gender " - in which case, that's something different from "being critical of gender".

Criticism of ideas (for example, that there is a personality type of "woman", or that "woman doesn't mean female but we won't tell anyone what we do want it to mean") is perfectly acceptable.

Unless you conflate criticism of ideas with violence or hate, which I've seen many people do (usually to excuse their own violence and hate).

Nah

Yes, I agree with you. I stepped away from the movement as I started to see too much dehumanising language used about the trans community. I may not agree that a man can become a woman, but what I was seeing was out and out transphobia and bullying. The other side may do it, but that doesn't mean it's okay.

you actually start to look askance at any man who doesn't comply with manly stereotypes - some seem to think a man wearing feminine clothes and wearing make up is fair game for ridicule

That's the opposite of being critical of gender! Hilarious.

No.

Surely a p1ss take?

Gender is an idea that devalues all humans, female and male alike. It causes irreparable harm to children.

I thought we'd turned a corner and no one was duped anymore?

Nope.

I'm just baffled that knowing basic fact is considered ‘a movement', but here we are.

I’m just here waiting for the examples you’ll surely pop back soon to share. Shall I pop the kettle on!

Why is it regarded as "dehumanising'" to refer to a man as a man. I haven't seen any evidence of any alleged phobia. Just women calmly pointing out biological reality. People can believe what they like about themselves and call themselves by whatever name they choose but the idea that they have somehow changed sex is a delusion. It is a delusion that nobody else is obliged to validate or acknowledge. Nor is anyone obliged to self censor their thoughts or words to tiptoe around the feelings of a man with a fetish for wearing women's clothes. That man is not and will never be a woman and I refuse to pretend that his delusion is real. People can scream "bullying or transphobia" all they like but that doesn't mean anything to me because I don't believe in their ideology.

I think you may be confusing something else for gender criticism. There is no "gender critical movement". Gender Criticism is feminist tool for analysing and critiquing social dynamics. It is not "I don't like trans people" or "I am critical of trans genderism" , it is a criticism of gender in all forms.

Transphobia is not gender criticism, no matter how much "the other side" want to conflate them because they cannot abide any pushback to the genderist supression of sex-based persepectives, expriences, rights and needs.

As others have said:

Trans-exclusive genderism: "Only female people can be women, only women want to wear dresses"
Trans-inclusive genderism: "Anyone can be a woman, only women want to wear dresses"
Gender critical feminism: "Only female people can be women, but anyone can enjoy a good frock"

@Laalaalaand being nasty and spiteful about individuals is generally not acceptable, though I’ve moved from ‘never’ to ‘only when they are being aggressive in the first place’. If India, for example, is spouting bollocks and throwing outrageous accusations around, I’m afraid they have set themselves up for ridicule.

Men who wear make up and clothing more usually worn by women- not a problem. Men who strut about in an attention seeking way dressed in clothes inappropriate for the setting- again, set themselves up for ridicule. The Canadian with the massive comedy/fetish fake boobs cannot expect to spoken of with respect.

I don't think it's gone far enough actually. After thinking more deeply about the impact of 'cosplaying' a woman I no longer think drag is harmless fun for example, I think any man dressing up and mocking 'female' stereotypes is unacceptable. I have no issue with men wearing 'feminine' clothing or acting 'feminine' however as I don't think there's any such thing as feminine; if a bloke wants to put on makeup and wear a dress and high heels, great - so long as he doesn't add comedy boobs and playact some offensive and grotesque character of what he thinks are female behaviours. That includes pantomime dames. For example, I don't have any particular issue with the Adidas man-in-a-woman's-swimsuit campaign, I have a huge issue with the Nike man-wearing-women's-gym-wear-and-hopping-about-giggling-and-doing-feeble-star-jumps-cos-that's-what-he-thinks-women-do-in-the-gym campaign.