Does anyone feel like they have gone too far with gender critical?

[Francine83]

I have been really interested in lots of the gender critical ideas and have read a lot. I deeply share a lot of the very real feminist concerns. But does anyone ever feel that they went a bit far with some of these ideas? I know a lot of us have been exploring these ideas for a while now and I'm interested to hear how things have evolved for people. I would really welcome a reasonable and genuine chat about this.

That's interesting @Ambienteamber so you would now say "gender" is a good thing that helps people overall? And you think this purely as a reaction to other people's behaviours, or because of consideration of the concept of gender?

I am genuinely interested, as I can't quite get my head around the logic of 'some people are aggressive, therefore gender is a positive thing' but happy to listen!

Don't think you can do that on threads any more, can you, with the username function changes?

Defending someone who knowingly punches women for sport despite knowing as a man it’s massively dangerous…. that’s indecent.

Imane Kelif’s behaviour is so far from that of a Muslim woman it’s , well, indecent. There is no way a woman would be comfortable astride her coach’s neck, patted on the chest, training with men etc.

You want a chat but haven’t come back to your own thread?

@Ambienteamber im still GC but agree with you about the obsession. I’ve stepped back from the organisations and people I used to follow.

Well, @Francine83 ......... are you ever going to come back and tell us what you mean by "they went a bit far with some of these ideas"...

Someone “raised as a woman in a very religious country” would not be sitting on the shoulders of their boxing coach would they. It’s almost as if they all know he is a man.

@Francine83 I agree with you. A personal example, there was a recent thread entitled "why cannot trans activists be more normal?". I replied saying that I sometimes thought the same about gender critical women. I was told ( on the feminist board,) to shut up.

so please expect some vitriol from these same posters - I certainly am. But as a feminist born in the early 1950s, such people have no chance of shutting me up. Men have tried to shut me up my entire lives. Some random women on an anonymous website aren't going to succeed 😂

God I hate a plopper. If you start a discussion thread at least have the decency to engage otherwise what a waste of everyone's time.

I dunno.. the abuse the vitriol the death threats the constant dehumanisation and speculation regarding her genitals the use of her as a prop for various political arguments
Hitting people in the face isn't a sport I'd want to take part in. Bit these women do want to take part in it. So I'm not sure why you are giving the being 'punched in the face' part so much weight against the horrific barrage of crap directed at Imane.
If I was a boxer I'd expect to be punched in the face.. I'd not expect to be sent death threats and have people discussing my genitals all over the global press.
She come from a country where it's illegal to be trans.
She's not trans.
There's some suggestion she may be intersex but again there's no real concrete proof from any reputable newsource. There's talk of 'reports' but only from extreme right wing news sources.
We know for a fact she was raised as a girl.
There's so much vitriol because this doesn't fit people's narratives of binary gender.
And for me I think it's a slippery slope into horrible rhetoric about which parts make a woman.. if you are born without ovaries are you a man? Born with ovaries but also internal testes?
Do we need to measure everyone's clits to make sure they aren't micro penises??

I just think it's disgusting abd thus is where these arguments lead.
She had female on her birth certificate. She was raised female.

So yes. I do feel sorry for her. Being reduced to a bag of body parts to try and prove various people's points.

You don’t think women are also being reduced to bags of body parts so others can dehumanise them?

Imane is and always was male.

I admit I did 'foam at the mouth' at men competing in women's sports in the Olympics, especially the contact sports. I don't think its acceptable to watch a woman being beaten by a man as sport or entertainment. In fact I did not watch one minute of the Olympics because of it.

I won't have any sport that allows men to compete as women on my TV, I certainly won't go to any live sporting events that allow it.

I don't think that this is unreasonable.

I'm GC and I don't know much about Imane Kalief. I thought the question was about the sex, not gender identity though?

IK is not trans

IK has a DSD that means they are male

It is. But those who believe in gender ideology like to force team men with DSDs with transwomen as a (crap) gotcha.

Indeed. No replies and nothing else under this username.

Don’t they just!!

IK is not trans but im not remotely surprised he’s been dragged into this

I don't personally feel any attachment to gender and I never have. So when I initially read about gender critical feminism it made perfect sense to me. I do feel women are exploited/oppressed/controlled etc using their biology. I do feel like some traditional ideas regarding gender are just tools of the patriarchy.

But as I've gotten older and seen how this has been playing out I think that rigidly sticking to the idea that gender is SOLELY a construct used to oppress women is now harming people.
It's not just trans people who feel connected to gender. If you talk to cis people you will find a variety of views. Ask them whether they know they are a woman aside from their physical form. You will get a variety of answers. Some people really do believe they are a certain gender.
For me if I woke up and I had a penis I would simply behave as tho I were a man. And I wouldn't feel any more or less myself that when I had had a vagina.
But there are people out there who if you asked them to think how they would feel if they woke up with a penis and had to act as though they were a man, would be repulsed and upset by the experience. Not just because it's not what they were used to but be cause they essentially feel themselves to be women in essence regardless of physical form.
I don't want to deny the experiences of anyone who feels this way and try and tell them 'no how I feel about it is the right way!'

I don't think gender is good or bad. I just now think that it does exist and is something some people experience.

I think it's understandable that there's a massive amount of anger and pain regarding these issues.
But I do think many gender critical people have lost sight somewhat of the real point.
So angry about trans women that they join forces with the religious extremists, the far right...
I just think men in these groups are having an absolute field day. The women hand themselves over to be 'protected' to groups who absolutely hate them.

She may or may not have a DSD and even if it turns out to be proven that she does she was still raised female as she was declared female at birth, and has a female passport.... and intersex conditions are not grouped into male and female any more unless someone has been living as one or the other.. in which case she would be a woman.

Yes. But how exactly does that make it ok? What do you think any of that achieves?

If I'm raised by wolves and think I am one, I'm not. I'm human.

I wear trousers, they don't make me male.

The truth is that made up things are just that - made up. Not fact.

Yes certain people within the movement are clearly anti gender non conformity.
Kellie Jay Keen for example in many ways now harms the movement.
I understand how easy it is to get so deeply entrenched in it that it becomes defensive and bitter. But it's important not to see small radical subsets of trans activism as the dominant view.

Well in her case it's just really complicated isn't it? People are pretending it isn't...
This is assuming it turns out to be true that she is intersex or has some chromosomal disorder.. there's no such concrete proof out there as yet.
But there is proof that she has been raised by her family as a girl and has a female passport. So if she does indeed have any type of disorder this may have been discovered as an adult..
So you'd be asking whether how she identified, how she had lived her whole life is now somehow wrong? And who gets to decide what type of intersex conditions are grouped into which sex and why??
So alot of stuff to think about there regarding sex and gender identity.

Why are people claiming that Kalief is trans?