Could this be why 'men hate us'?

[Floatyoatcake]

When I was young I was in denial about the fact that men hate women (not all men ofc) but now in my 50s I've come to the firm conclusion that a lot of men hate women.

I also know that most men I've been in relationships with over the last 40 years have started off proclaiming that they have a high sex drive and that sex is important to them etc. However ime men's sex drive is often about novelty, power and control, and not always about intimate sex explored in a relationship. Almost all relationships I've been in, after a while the man has stopped being so bothered about sex, although still keen on the relationship. In the vast majority of relationships I've had, after a year or two, I've been the more sexually driven, while they've often been content to be a bit more of a passenger. I think this fear, of women actually having higher sex drives than men is the reason they hate us. It's fundamental to their beings, that they see themselves as the ones with high sex drives and loathe the thought it might not be true.

Men hold themselves up to be these highly sexually driven creatures and yet the lived experience of myself and friends is otherwise. I guess we don't always know how strong women's sex drives are due to being contstrained by the fear of male violence, but I wonder if men are scared of being exposed as only moderately sexually driven, which is what sits behind their hatred of women.

What do you think - is it a possibility?

I think that this is sounds rather naive. In my experience, it's sometimes the 'nice loving' men who are the worst behaved.

I used to work in a university and you'd be shocked at the 'nice', intelligent, 'happily married' men who were attempting to have sex with their students. It's tainted my view of men permanently.

I agree with you mostly but I really dislike how many posts I see referring to women of the past not having been useful outside of childbearing. It's so far from the truth and really disrespectful to our female ancestors. Yes they had less options and power, but they did not just raise children.

Absolutely this. It was rife at the universities I used to work.

Far too much generalising.
Some men hate women
Some women hate men
Not all men hate women
Men that do hate women don’t all have the same reasons for it
Some women believe anything a man does that they don’t like is because the man hates women / the man wouldnt have done it to another man…with no proof that this is even true … perpetuating the “men hate women”

@MidnightMeltdown God it's so grim isn't it. I remember at uni one of the very old professors kept singling me out and calling me his beautiful English rose 🤢

I don’t think it’s healthy to see men as a class and women as a class. We’re all complex people. There are lots of different types of men - that’s why they don’t all get on. There are many different tribes within them. Same with women.

I think there's lots of reasons, but one is fear and hatred for female sexuality, I think. I've been researching Marie Antoinette (I study history) and it's interesting but v disturbing to see the way that her image was distorted by the press into a nymphomaniac whose sexuality was a threat to the country. If you look at the Tudor period, men were often scared women would use their knowledge of their bodies to make them impotent.
It's odd bc it's much less likely, though certainly possible, for a woman to
I think the traditional male idea (no, not all men) about sex, that the person who penetrates dominates and is superior, has a lot to do with it too. Some gay men, from the little knowledge I have, seem to view sex in this v black/white, dominant/passive paradigm too. Not just penetrative sex : in porn look at how women giving blowjobs, who in theory the dominant partner, performing the sex act, get humiliated. Obvs plenty of men don't think like porn, but too many do.

You could say the same thing about men, they didn't only go off to battle, do horrible and dangerous physical work etc.

But the reality is as a general rule over history this is how it was for the majority of people, women's role was primarly to birth and raise children.

Hamalot, I think it's quite offensive to imply that raping someone is at all comparable to generalised 'taking advantage' of someone.

No, I dont think it is that at all. I think there are many issues, but fundamentally, male hatred of women is because they want to protect their privilege. People always lash out most at the people they wrong.

As others have said, I think the male opinions of women have changed over time. I DO agree that men (this generation at least) dislike women because they need to feel needed.

Female empowerment is great, and it is long overdue, but sites will say it comes with inherent 'negatives'.

It's basically, say you're on a date, and you get this 'vibe' that the person opposite you thinks they're better than you. Women these days are being taught/told that they shouldn't settle, they deserve the best, they can achieve anything, they deserve that four 6s man simply for being you. This vibe, this self-confidence (bordering on arrogance?) is not going to be attractive to men, and in all fairness, "I dont need you" wouldn't be attractive to anyone. This is somewhat reinforced by OLD, as hundreds of men approach women on a daily basis, giving women that feeling of "if this man isn't 100%, I have LOTS of other options." Obviously, you could argue that this arrogance/superiority has been prevalent with men for centuries, and it's only recently that the tables have turned.

This is the general attitude that's propagated on the YouTube videos surrounding MGTOW. The rebuttal to this attitude is the men saying, "What do you bring to the table?", which, I think, is somewhat of a humbling exercise. They'll claim that women these days will say they're not there to cook or clean, sex is a privilege rather than a right, the money they earn is their own, yet they want the man to still pay for dates, make big deals out of birthdays/mothers days (when it's often not reciprocated), big rings, fancy weddings, etc. The question that men ask is then, what are women offering in return?

So I actually think it's a combination of the two. Women are telling men they're not needed, but likewise, not providing men with anything they would want/have 'traditionally' gotten from women anyway.

I think there is a lot of anger surrounding it. I don't think many men feel the value in relationships anymore.

@AliasGrace47 thanks, the history of female sexuality and the portrayal of women sounds super interesting, if you have any recommendations of books etc do pass them to me. I'm a complete ignoramus when it comes to history.

I read somewhere that the way porn has become so ubiquitous has resulted in women's sexual fantasies being often imagined/viewed from the male perspective. Which is like an actual erasure of genuine female sexual desire, to be replaced by a male fantasy of what it should be like. As a PP said, sex can be more pleasurable for women than for men - add to that some genuine female sexual fantasy and desire and I can start to see why men might be afraid of that, when contrasted by their own sexual limitations.

bifur, I agree that in many ways gender stereotypes haven't been relaxed for men, and this is v unfair. The whole 4 6s thing is horrible. True feminism is about breaking down restrictive boxes and prejudices, not getting rid of the female ones but still imposing the male ones.
How is the whole 'tallness, big dick and muscles worship feminist in any sense? It's as wrong as taunting women with large vaginas. Feminism should surely be about getting away from the phallocentric view of sex, especially as most women need oral to orgasm. It just seems to be going back to the view that sex is a woman passively
being penetrated. How is it progressive to make men w large w penises feel they're God's gift, with power over women and other men?
I can understand the large salary demand for women who want to be sahms or don't earn much and want a family. But for those who have large ones, and want to keep working, it is unfair. And how is it feminist? Feminism is about encouraging independence for women, men shouldn't be pushed to be main provider by default. Yes, ofc the money you earn is your own, but if you earn similarly, and want to operate as a couple, finances should be shared.
As to the whole thing about women expecting to be asked out and paid for, I find it v odd when on mumsnet women who normally are feminist say they look down on a man as unmanly who doesn't ask them out, won't offer to pay solely, checks for consent before kissing. I think being bi gives me a different perspective - who do they think does the asking out and paying etc if it's 2 women? Is a woman unfeminine for doing that? There's often issues in fact bc women are so socialised to sit pretty and wait that l/bi women starting out can find it v difficult to intiate dates. It just shows how ridiculous the 'man must do xyz' is.
On sex, it is not a right to have sex w your partner per se, but if a man wants sex and his partner never does, their drives are v mismatched, he needs to find a woman w a fairly matching one. There are plenty of women who do want sex.
Women aren't there to cook and clean, but they should share their jobs equally w their partner so neither is overburdened.

I think a lot if this is US- and online- based, which can be v binary and over the top. And also weddings I think are bigger in the US. Speaking for myself, I def wouldn't want a huge wedding or any of those things.

@OriginalUsername2 Eh? Considering men (and women) as cohorts is the basis of any meaningful class analysis. Sure, within these classes can be found the complexities of individuality, but overarching trends and patterns of behaviour are discerned when considering a group as a whole.

It is broadly understood that 'not all men are like this', yet the idea that men as a class harbour an underlying, often subconscious, resentment, revulsion and fear of women as a class is hardly news ‐it manifests itself in patriarchy and is the water in which we all swim, even if the individual men in our families, social circles and workplaces are are decent, solid guys.

You are having an argument with a straw man. Your ideas about what women / feminists want in men is a complete fallacy, straight out of the incel playbook. Feminism is absolutely not imposing these expectations on men.

Some of this stuff is straight out of the manosphere. I had to look up four sixes:

The four qualities women require men to have when it comes to dating, unfortunately. The more you have, the better your chances with women.

1.) 6 feet tall
2.) 6 figure salary
3.) 6 inch D
4.) 6 pack abs

Written by teenagers I assume.

Yes it's literally, obviously been written by men (or possibly boys) about men. Yet they blame feminism for it (lol).

I've never even heard of the "4 6s". Only men are obsessed about dick size and think abs or a 6 figure salary are more essential and attractive to women than eg being emotionally available, ability to keep his cool, having a sense of humour, not being self-obsessed, having the capacity to pick one's own socks up and put them in the washing basket, loading the dishwasher, sending his own mother a birthday card without being micromanaged etc. Drool haha

Floaty, I don't know very much- but Chantal Thomas' The Wicked Queen is where I read Marie Antoinette & the pamphlets & Retha Warnicke's Anne of Cleves has some interesting things about impotence.
For a more general one, I've heard Sex : Lessons From History by Fern Riddell is v good.
It's not a history book, but one of my fave bks is Colette's The Pure and the Impure, although it's about Belle Epoque France, it says a lot sexuality that's true today imo. One of her pen portraits in it is a Don Juan type, who seems to fear not sex w women, but committing to them. I think the problem w many men is that bc they see sex as about domination, it's hard to get real intimacy through it. She also suggests female bodies are sometimes seen as moist and repellent by men- I think it's true that some men never get over their adolescent disgust for actual women's pubic hair, periods etc

It's what happens when you dehumanise women and exist in an echo chamber. They've made up a Frankenstein monster of what they think women are.

She's very exacting and only wants 4 things in a potential mate.

Ghouella, I agree that lots of feminists would disagree w these, as they should, be they aren't feminist at all. I have read stuff that says some women do want this, but I don't really know how accurate it is. It's not true of anyone I know!
I have seen disparaging comments on here about small penises, but not a huge amount. I like to presume good faith, but it does sound at least partly straw-manning 'all modern women are like this'. Actual feminists wouldn't demand these things, so they shouldn't be blamed.

Look through the feminist board on this forum. Obviously feminists (and women more broadly) don't all agree with each other all the time, but take this board - 99% of threads are concerned with well... feminism. Eg achieving equality and safety for women, women's rights. How we feel (and what can be done) about women and girls being y'know, routinely murdered, assaulted and raped by men. I have to say a few pages of scrolling through threads - no threads about penis size or about how not enough men have abs and pay for dinner these days...

Thank you for taking the point on board. Honesty if you want to know what women really value, listen to women not men.

I agree women have a much better idea of what we want than men do! I have seen some unfair opinions here re penises and asking out eyc, but nothing on the scale or as proscriptive as the 3 6s as the MRAs claim. I agree it seems more the sort of thing men judge and compete about. And the sorts of women who demand the 3 6s or similar probs don't describe themselves as feminist. It's like when incels say women only want '10s' but then say they would only consider a 10 themselves 🙄

Remember straight men are the ones searching (for example) for BBC porn (nothing to do with our esteemed broadcaster) to the extent it's it's own category. And films orientated to the male gaze (and porn) emphasise domineering, high status, lots of money, muscly men far far more than films orientated to the female gaze do (it's there, but it's more subtle/balanced. The most extreme example would be the tacky 50shades which is rightly derided but there are films targeted at men that are much more OTT on the money, muscles, power).
There are lots of interesting things to say about the male gaze and female gaze. But yeah, I think the call is coming from inside the house a fair bit. The fact that there are straight men for whom the most important feature in a porn film is the size of the male actors cock is... Something.
So I think it's partly insecurity - not only in comparison to women but also compared to other men (and assuming they are being compared to those men by women). Women get to be the vessel into which they externalise their own feelings. And then insist it's what women really think.

Women are also more likely to read books written by men or watch films etc about and by men. Men are extremely reluctant to consume media by and about women. Which is 100% their choice but it is a bit rich to the insist they know what women think and feel based on opinions they crowd sourced from reddit. That's a road to unhappiness right there.

Men want to impress other men. Not women. It’s about status.
They do want women but for what women can do for them.
Am generalising horribly but I have met few men who really really like women. Find them interesting and worthy of respect.
I like the comments about kindness and would love to live in that world but also know that women’s boundaries will be trampled if we don’t put up barriers. I could easily be subsumed into a more caring role but have to protect myself. Is this what men mean when they complain that women aren’t feminine any more? Submission = femininity?
Got taken advantage of too many times for that to work for me!