Could this be why 'men hate us'?

[Floatyoatcake]

When I was young I was in denial about the fact that men hate women (not all men ofc) but now in my 50s I've come to the firm conclusion that a lot of men hate women.

I also know that most men I've been in relationships with over the last 40 years have started off proclaiming that they have a high sex drive and that sex is important to them etc. However ime men's sex drive is often about novelty, power and control, and not always about intimate sex explored in a relationship. Almost all relationships I've been in, after a while the man has stopped being so bothered about sex, although still keen on the relationship. In the vast majority of relationships I've had, after a year or two, I've been the more sexually driven, while they've often been content to be a bit more of a passenger. I think this fear, of women actually having higher sex drives than men is the reason they hate us. It's fundamental to their beings, that they see themselves as the ones with high sex drives and loathe the thought it might not be true.

Men hold themselves up to be these highly sexually driven creatures and yet the lived experience of myself and friends is otherwise. I guess we don't always know how strong women's sex drives are due to being contstrained by the fear of male violence, but I wonder if men are scared of being exposed as only moderately sexually driven, which is what sits behind their hatred of women.

What do you think - is it a possibility?

This sums it up.

@Floatyoatcake that's exactly my point, thanks. Fear and hate to me come from the same place.

I find this odd tbh. Your views, agreement or disagreement with the OP's post aside, does it really strike you as so extremely bizarre as to be "fucking nuts", to frame discussions, let's say sociological discussions, in terms the 'class' or rather, group, of people being discussed?
I wonder if this is why every other comment or post (not specifically MN), but in general needs to state a variant of NAMALT - as some sort of rhetorical 'terms and conditions' apply.

NAMALT?

It seems like you think this is a relationship thread rather than a feminist one. She's not asking for advice or opinions about her relationship and she doesn't owe anyone an explanation about her feelings about her relationship.
There is a general question being asked here, and making this personal about the OP just derails that discussion.
You wouldn't want to do that, right?

Not All Men Are Like That.

It's what some women tend to say when they dismiss many womens lived experience and have apparently never come across difficulties with men and so try and persuade those women that everything is rosy in the garden.

Also see: NMN (Not My Nigel)

Yes, which is why the more we rise, the angrier they are. Incels and Andrew Tate fans (lots of overlap there) are a manifestation of that.
They don't want to have to treat us right or bother with trying to be more attractive to us in order to have access to our bodies.

Yes, which is why the more we rise, the angrier they are. Incels and Andrew Tate fans (lots of overlap there) are a manifestation of that.

You also see it very clearly when you look at other countries which haven't progressed as much. Funny how the Taliban, for example, don't want women to drive, have an education, or a job. Religion my arse, it's all about the male desire to control women.

Women aren't people like men, they are possessions like cattle.

Since this discussion is only interesting apparently if everyone agrees with you, I'll leave you to it. I hope you can get over your emotional baggage about men and move forward with your partner.

@Spudthespanner Much appreciated, as you were repeatedly and aggressively missing the OP's point and becoming rather boring.

When I first read this post, I felt appalled at the level of auto-projection on display. I don't feel like men hate women. Is it more accurate to say that men don't understand women?

@Floatyoatcake
Is it possible that the reason your partner is struggling with conversations is because of shame? Look at the messaging that is given to men, the standards and expectations that are heaped on them - most men can't meet those standards, so feel shamed, less than and that shame comes out in resentment. A 40 year old doesn't have the stamina of a 21 year old, but the messaging that they receive is that the natural aging process makes them less than. If he already feels less than, how is wanting more from him going to help? Ultimately, part of the problem is his to deal with, but maybe starting with understanding what he feels would help to find common ground that can be built upon.

That old saying, you'll get more with honey than vinegar - would that be helpful? Is your goal is to improve the relationship between yourselves? If you feel that he hates you, will it become a self fulfilling cycle? Is there another way that you can achieve the same goal without demeaning each other? A way to build a bridge rather than tear down?

@Hamalot42 thanks but this isn't about my relationship which is good. My comment about the conversation with my partner was in response to the PP immediately before mine. Basically I was agreeing with her than despite wide experience with men, they appear unable to have straightforward conversations re sex/desire.

So how do you explain the Andrew Tates, incels, sex trafficking, porn, domestic and street violence and murders of women and girls. Do you think this is due to a lack of understanding from men? If this was the case why wouldn't they take steps to increase their understanding rather than resort to this hateful behaviour? I'd like to think it was poor understanding but I don't think it fits the evidence we have.

Some men do hate women. I'd say more women hate men. I think that women are secretly terrified of men because we subconsciously think they are all going to kill us. I also think there's underlying resentment because they can always reach orgasm.

There are exceptions to every rule. For some reason, YouTube has decided that I like men's rights videos. Some of them are truly awful, but often there is a grain of truth within the videos.

As far as I can tell, men and women are very different from each other and have different priorities and expectations of each other. Most of the difficulties start out from not understanding the other, then the gulf widens until nastiness ensues. Then before you know it, mob culture takes over on both sides and people get hurt.

Have you ever heard of the three 6's? It shocked me how entitled some people can be.

One of the tests that I've learned to use is 'does the advice apply both ways?'. Building bridges, understanding the other's perspective when in conflict is always helpful. I'd say the same thing to a man complaining about his wife.

Oh, and if you read the hateful incel stuff, shame and resentment are at the core of their issues. Shaming them more isn't going to help, building bridges will. And yes, men need to be doing a lot of the work. A simple smile can brighten another's day. I don't see too many of them around.

"A simple smile can brighten another's day."

Eh? Are you telling women to smile?
None of us have ever heard that before

@AnotherEmma

I'd say it to both men and women. Acts of kindness can go a long way to breakdown barriers and make the world a better, nicer place. I thought that's what everyone wanted, isn't it?

I agree with this. Sadly.

Your naivety is astounding. There are men who abuse, rape and murder women. But we should all just smile at each other and make the world a "nicer place"?!

[edit to add: that was in response to Hamalot]

I would agree with this. Its very sad.

Have you ever read Terry Pratchett? Captain Carrot is notorious for being simple, but the character isn't stupid.

You are right, I am naive and it comes from a diagnosable condition (of which I was diagnosed). You are also right that there are men who commit outrageous acts, but will you acknowledge that both sides in the debate are capable of being beastly? I'd advocate both sides to better understand the other, to refrain from nastiness.

I'd like to live in a world where another's naivety isn't seen as a lever to take advantage of. That's been my life experience, from both men and women.

If I may, one of my memories was meeting a woman at a bus stop. She'd just been discharged from hospital having fallen. The ambulance that took her ill mother to hospital, ended up taking her too. All I did was talk to her, listen to her and empathise with her. It cost me nothing.

I didn't change the world, but I made her day. Enough so, that after she got off the bus another passenger commented on it.

I once was in the fortunate position of being able to pay for another passenger's coach fare when their card was declined. They tried to give me what cash they had, but I politely declined instead asking that if they ever found themselves able to help another that they do so. That was payment enough.

I've walked the walk, I've been the good Samaritan. I don't want praise or recognition, but would instead ask you to try making a difference in your world every day. That doesn't mean putting yourself in danger.

It could be giving two minutes to the overwhelmed mother with the tired child, screaming the place down. Maybe playing peek-a-boo to distract the child. Or it could be talking to the old dear on the bus and discovering she hasn't spoken to anyone in days and is desperately lonely. You won't change the world, but you will make the difference.

@Hamalot42 are you male or female?

@AnotherEmma

Why does it matter to you whether or not I am male or female? At the end of the day, I'm taking the risk of being on a website that has more than once been called a nest of vipers. My every naive instinct is telling me to get away from here, that no good can come from this, yet still I'm here advocating for kindness, understanding and responsibility. Is that not enough?

@sunflowersngunpowdr
I don't think womens fear of being killed by men is always subconscious, often we are acutely aware of the risk. My question is around why do men behave in ways that terrify women? Why do they threaten, rape and murder us?

Well, the fact that you've evaded the questions confirms my suspicion that you're probably male - am I right?

Obviously men and women have different perspectives on this issue.

I think it's probably more a reaction to the shifting roles in times where administrative work is more prevalent. Historically men went to war, men went down coal mines, men died constructing buildings, men pretty much built everything. This is the first time in history when large numbers of women have been useful outside of rearing children and people still haven't adjusted to this huge evolutionary development.

@Floatyoatcake

Men who choose to behave in those ways do so for a myriad of reasons, but it always comes down to power and control. Rape isn't a crime of sex, it's about power. Sex just happens to be part of it. It's the same reason newspapers print salacious gossip and horrible news.

Right now, part of what horrifies me about the Russian/Ukrainian war, knowing that women and children will be raped as a symbol of conquest. It will happen, but reflect inwards, have you ever taken advantage of another? It's the difference between the lightest grey and the darkest black.

@AnotherEmma
I avoided your question because it adds nothing to the debate. You want to use your perception of my sex as a weapon to play down the message. In effect, you want to use your sex to gain the upper hand in the debate. Or have I got that wrong?