Could this be why 'men hate us'?

[Floatyoatcake]

When I was young I was in denial about the fact that men hate women (not all men ofc) but now in my 50s I've come to the firm conclusion that a lot of men hate women.

I also know that most men I've been in relationships with over the last 40 years have started off proclaiming that they have a high sex drive and that sex is important to them etc. However ime men's sex drive is often about novelty, power and control, and not always about intimate sex explored in a relationship. Almost all relationships I've been in, after a while the man has stopped being so bothered about sex, although still keen on the relationship. In the vast majority of relationships I've had, after a year or two, I've been the more sexually driven, while they've often been content to be a bit more of a passenger. I think this fear, of women actually having higher sex drives than men is the reason they hate us. It's fundamental to their beings, that they see themselves as the ones with high sex drives and loathe the thought it might not be true.

Men hold themselves up to be these highly sexually driven creatures and yet the lived experience of myself and friends is otherwise. I guess we don't always know how strong women's sex drives are due to being contstrained by the fear of male violence, but I wonder if men are scared of being exposed as only moderately sexually driven, which is what sits behind their hatred of women.

What do you think - is it a possibility?

@NordicwithTeen -is that specifically for social or dating, women only organisations or events you've seen that? Where TW aren't excluded? I've certainly seen that ..

@shuggles you seem very keen to shut down the debate here, you seem to want us believe that we don't live in a patriarchal society - and that any differences in how women are treated are due to their inherent nature and not the biased system that favours and centres mens needs.

Is that what you believe?

I was listening to Woman's Hour a few months ago and they had a whole debate on lesbian venues being completely over taken by male gay bars and there being no safe space for lesbians these days. The fact men kept coming in and causing trouble was one of the reasons stated, often because straight women go in to get away from male attention.

@Floatyoatcake you seem very keen to shut down the debate here,

Not at all.

you seem to want us believe that we don't live in a patriarchal society - and that any differences in how women are treated are due to their inherent nature and not the biased system that favours and centres mens needs. Is that what you believe?

Regardless of whether or not we live in a patriarchal society, it's not applicable to my point because I raised the point of bathhouses, which are private businesses and not part of any "biased system." There is nothing to stop anyone from opening their own bathhouse.

So tell me, why are bathhouses for gay men extremely common, whereas bathhouses for lesbian women are basically non-existent?

I would say that bc the majority of lesbians don't want hookups, plus we're a minority to begin with, it can be hard for the ones who do to find suitable people. I've heard friends complain that we don't have a casual scene the way gay men do. Personally, I think bathouses are seedy & from what I hear from friends, the gay male scene is too often dehumanising in its focus on bodies, so I'm glad we don't have them.

But I do think it should be easier to find someone to hookup if you want. Apps are very bad as overrun w unicorn hunters (bi or sometimes straight women who solicit, only later revealing they want their bf involved too. V disturbing & has rapey overtones more often than one wants to think).

The in-person scene, while legally protected to be based on bio sex in theory, is v poor bc of the invasion of transwomen. Nobody wants to organise a lesbian- only club etc bc of accusations of transphobia. Radio 4 was right- the presence of straight & bi women can mean that men come in too. 🙄I remember hearing about the founding of one lesbian only club on here, I haven't had time to investigate further yet.

So, I would say that on average lesbians are a bit more likely to be happy w casual sex than straight women, but not that much,
I do think the physical safety issue does make it somewhat more likely. I think probs FWBs are more common. The dynamics can sometimes be more porous than they would be in a male-female friendship, for various reasons.

BTW, it's not true that lesbian bathouses have never existed. There was one in Toronto around 2000, I read an article recently aboit how it got raided on a false pretext by creepy police officers. I don't know how long it lasted tho, probs put people off.. Don't know if there's been any others.

BTW, shuggles, I don't know if you've read any of the trans stuff on FWR. But if not, self ID has threatened all women's spaces. Yes, bio sex only ones can be organised, but a lot of people are obvs busy & just want to be able to go to a bar, gym etc without having to organise it all. I agree people need to be more proactive, but I get why a lot just don't have the energy. ..

I'm a history student & this is def interesting, and very sad considering what it led to. I think I mentioned Tiresias a few pages back, the Greek legend of a man who was changed into a woman & back, & when questioned by Zeus, said he enjoyed sex 10 times as much when he was female.
& in the medieval stuff I'm doing, women are often seen as less able to control themselves & so more subject to lust. I think the issue is that women's desire is often measured by whether, like a lot of men, they want it w multiple different people, whereas women are more likely imo to have a high sex drive & still want it w the same partner. Queen Victoria's a good historical example of someone who clearly had a high libido, but was very monogamous!
The studies on libido decrease in women also point to boredom in the marriage, so maybe the picture is more nuanced on this. As always, it's complicated....

Interesting discussion. I remember a few years ago Stephen Fry was roundly criticised for saying if women liked sex as much as men they would also cruise for sex e.g., in toilets.
The criticism was mostly that anonymous, random sex wasn't safe for women in the same way as it is for men.
But if it's same sex sex, there shouldn't be too much risk for women (in fact, it's likely more risky for men to meet random men!).
And yet it doesn't happen. There's no female cottaging or cruising.
Whether it's innate or conditioned, I think casual sex isn't as attractive to women as for me.
Yes, someone will likely post that they love casual sex, but I mean in general. For similar reasons to why there is a very limited male sex trade for women.

@deydododatdodontdeydo I hear what you're saying and that's definitely a popular opinion, my guess is that if, as a man, you're socialised to feel entitled to have your (sexual) needs met and you don't feel unsafe, then casual sex is appealing. Whereas women are socialised to meet others needs and not put themselves first. We also hear from PP that lesbian or women only spaces are infiltrated by men frequently and so it would be highly unlikely that women's casual sex set ups would be similar to men's. Therefore looking for women's equivalent of cottaging is not where it's at. I read some research that women have higher sex drives mainly due to having much broader tastes than men. It claimed that women are more likely to accept bisexuality within themselves, and less likely to be driven by the need for external validation (she finds me attractive, which means something about me (good looking, funny, whatever)) whereas women are less likely to need this validation or ego boost. I don't know, but I do think that we can't judge womens sexuality on whether they behave like men or not. It's interesting to me that historically men/society has been afraid of female sexual desire - I suspect that the porn/misogynistic movement is partly aimed to suppress female sexuality, bit like coercive control on mass.

@deydododatdodontdeydo The criticism was mostly that anonymous, random sex wasn't safe for women in the same way as it is for men.

The hazards for women meeting anonymous men for sex are exactly the same as the hazards for men meeting anonymous men for sex. It is an urban legend that only straight men are dangerous, and that only women are attacked. Men attack other men, and gay men attack other gay men.

The most prolific rapist in British history was a gay man who targeted and drugged dozens of men.

@Floatyoatcake I hear what you're saying and that's definitely a popular opinion, my guess is that if, as a man, you're socialised to feel entitled to have your (sexual) needs met and you don't feel unsafe, then casual sex is appealing. Whereas women are socialised to meet others needs and not put themselves first.

Society can alter behaviours to an extent, but society cannot alter sexual desires and drives, which are solely biological in origin. The evidence for this is the fact that homosexuality has been severely supressed throughout all of history by many different societies, yet, it still occurs.

It's interesting to me that historically men/society has been afraid of female sexual desire

Are you from a different planet?

Personally, I feel that men’s hatred of women (not all, of course), stems from insecurity and a feeling of worthlessness. Whether that is directed towards womens’ sexuality, career, money etc. I listened to a Ted Talk with Warren Farrell about the ‘Boy Crisis’. At first, I scoffed, then I listened. Feminism made amazing strides at achieving rights for women and spread a message that girls could be whatever they wanted. Women’s roles in society opened up. Issue is, men’s roles largely didn’t. They should be encouraged to embrace caring roles in society - as parents, teachers, nurses etc. They may find more meaning. I think there is also a complete lack of promotion of healthy role models for boys and men which has , in my opinion, given rise to the manospehere. In short, I feel that masculinity is experiencing an identity crisis.

I've just started reading the book 'Male Fantasies' by Klaus Theweleit. So far, so many powerful insights into why the hate us. And seem determined to take the world with them too. The ultimate family annihilation.

There are some very hard truths that need looking at.

Sexual orientation is not identical to sexuality in general or sexual desire/drive.

Evidence to the contrary does exist - boys mimicking what they see in porn. That very much is 'society' shaping sexuality.

I've only read the first couple of pages, some of the responses are pretty wild.

I think there's some important things to remember about conversations like this:

Our own personal experience will always bias our opinions.
No group of people in the world is homogenous and has the same motivations and beliefs, even when behaviours are the same.

You can't really talk about people "as a class" when your sole justification for your beliefs are from your own small frame of reference, especially when you simultaneously say your own relationship with all men in your life is great and they all love you?

It's such a male view point though. Men and women's sexuality tends to be different, just because women tend to prefer a different kind of sex, it doesn't make their enjoyment any less. Male sexuality isn't the bench mark for 'liking sex'.

Exactly! It's so phallocentric to talk that way.

While I don't necessarily disagree with everything that's written on these kind of regular "why do men hate women?" threads on MN, I can't help but think that the whole concept is an absolute nonsense.

How can individual experiences with individual me in particular sets of circumstances lead anyone to ask WDMHW?

Don't be daft.

Would this question be framed for other groupings?

Why do white people hate black people, anyone?

No, thought not.

What else do you fancy then? Why do Muslims hate Jews?

Should we get stuck into that one?

Why do Boomers hate Generation Z, maybe?

Individuals can have certain characteristics and motivations, maybe groups of individuals can be bracketed together, but asking why 50 per cent of the population feel a certain, intense emotion towards the other 50 is preposterous guff.

I'm surprised MN allow it, tbh.

The wouldn't allow threads on the topics I've mention above, I'm sure.

Would you be happy with your sons/brothers/dads reading some of the contributions here, I wonder?

Just a little counterpoint to ponder...

Male sexuality revolves around trying to "please" women. Men who satisfy women (or believe that they do) boast about their ability to do so, whereas men who can't are the source of ridicule.

Boys choke during sex because they have been wrongly led to believe this is what women want.