Could this be why 'men hate us'?

[Floatyoatcake]

When I was young I was in denial about the fact that men hate women (not all men ofc) but now in my 50s I've come to the firm conclusion that a lot of men hate women.

I also know that most men I've been in relationships with over the last 40 years have started off proclaiming that they have a high sex drive and that sex is important to them etc. However ime men's sex drive is often about novelty, power and control, and not always about intimate sex explored in a relationship. Almost all relationships I've been in, after a while the man has stopped being so bothered about sex, although still keen on the relationship. In the vast majority of relationships I've had, after a year or two, I've been the more sexually driven, while they've often been content to be a bit more of a passenger. I think this fear, of women actually having higher sex drives than men is the reason they hate us. It's fundamental to their beings, that they see themselves as the ones with high sex drives and loathe the thought it might not be true.

Men hold themselves up to be these highly sexually driven creatures and yet the lived experience of myself and friends is otherwise. I guess we don't always know how strong women's sex drives are due to being contstrained by the fear of male violence, but I wonder if men are scared of being exposed as only moderately sexually driven, which is what sits behind their hatred of women.

What do you think - is it a possibility?

I think the dynamic of some men playing nice to get sex isn't all that dissimilar from the dynamic of some women playing nice to get money. If both could get what they wanted by just asking they likely would. And of course when the sex or money dries up they often disappear quicker than a rat up a drainpipe.

@Floatyoatcake They big themselves up by talking about how up for it they are, but once you strip away the power and control, the ego boost and external validation that men get from sex.

Again, this is projection from your side. If you are a person that thinks about "power and control" (whatever that even means), and if you are a person that has sex for an ego boost or validation, then you will assume men are doing the same thing. However, this is typically not the case.

I have never had sexual contact with any woman for reasons related to "power and control," an ego boost, or external validation.

plus take away the social pressure that is exerted on women to behave in certain ways plus the ever present fear of male violence.

Most people grow out of "social pressures" by their 20s and stop caring what other people think.

If the threat of violence is a concern when being alone with another person during sex, there are very easy ways to put controls in place that eliminate that threat. So I'm not sure how that can be an excuse.

@AliasGrace47 shuggles, while I agree that there are def social pressures for men to be less sexual, & it's true mores have changed a lot recently, wouldn't you still say that sowing wild oats carries some social cachet w other men? Or would you argue that men are jealous or indifferent to men who have a lot of casual sex?

I would say that men having lots of sexual partners is frowned upon. Rightly or wrongly, there is a social perception that casual sex is harmful to women, and therefore a man who engages in casual sex is harming women.

There is also the perception (again, rightly or wrongly) that men who have lots of sexual partners lack maturity. I am single and I do not have children, but almost all of the men I went to school with are now married and have their own children. Let's say for the sake or argument that I have loads of casual sexual partners and I have sex with lots of different women (this is not true). If I was to meet up with my old friends from school and tell them I have loads of sexual partners, would they admire me for that? No, I'm fairly certain they would ridicule me.

And vice versa, would you say that, generalising, the majority of men wouldn't be bothered if a friend were strictly religious or for some other reason didn't want to have sex until marriage?

Having known many men and boys who were strictly religious and wanted to wait until marriage to have sex, I can confirm that is correct.

I've always thought that being a virgin for longer is harder for men bc traditionally they are supposed to be the more sexually aggressive & promiscuous ones,

Boys and men don't try to lose their virginity because of social pressures. They try to do so because of physical urges.

As to stresses of everyday life, I def agree this can affect male libido. But if this is common, why do we always hear about women's stress causing a lower libido & affecting their marriages, rather than the reverse? Is it that bc men are starting from a generally higher libido level, there's more scope for it to drop without becoming a problem?

This one I don't have answer for.

@shuggles I think we inhabit different universes. If you are not aware that people(often men but not exclusively) get an ego boost from having sex with another person they find attractive and your unaware that sex is often about power and control (rape is always about this) then it's pretty hard to find common ground with you. I've been in relationships, mainly with men, for several decades and I can assure you this isn't projection on my part.

Maybe you move in particular, quite sheltered, circles but if you've not known of men who brag about people they've had sex with, ogle women, watch porn, persuade women into sex sometimes by deceit etc, then I can see why you'd think it was a figment of my imagination.

Interesting- I don't have time for a full response yet, but in the meantime, what very easy controls do you think a woman could put in place to ensure she was safe during casual sex? I assume you don't mean having a friend on standby or having weapons in the house?

@Floatyoatcake I think we inhabit different universes. If you are not aware that people(often men but not exclusively) get an ego boost from having sex with another person they find attractive

I can see how it would be an ego boost to a man if an attractive woman is attracted to them, but this would definitely not be a motivation to have sex as you don't need to actually have sex with anyone to benefit from the ego boost of that person being attracted to you.

and your unaware that sex is often about power and control (rape is always about this) then it's pretty hard to find common ground with you.

I wouldn't know because I am not a rapist, and I don't know any rapists, so I can't relate to that. The majority of sexual encounters are not rapes, so how can sex "often" be about power and control?

Maybe you move in particular, quite sheltered, circles but if you've not known of men who brag about people they've had sex with, ogle women, watch porn, persuade women into sex sometimes by deceit etc, then I can see why you'd think it was a figment of my imagination.

Of course men "ogle women, watch porn, and persuade women into sex sometimes by deceit." I never said otherwise.

There are some men who brag about people they've had sex with, but I am saying this would generally be frowned upon in a society which looks down on casual sex, and holds marriage in a higher regard than fleeting sexual encounters.

@AliasGrace47 Interesting- I don't have time for a full response yet, but in the meantime, what very easy controls do you think a woman could put in place to ensure she was safe during casual sex? I assume you don't mean having a friend on standby or having weapons in the house?

Never keep weapons in the house. Weapons can very easily be used by an attacker against you. I would never keep weapons for that reason.

There are a number of methods that can be used to eliminate the risk of being physically attacked during sex-

• Network with people on a swinging website and attend their social events, so you are only ever interacting with people within a trusted circle. Other women will be able to refer you to men who are trusted.
• Have sex with people when others are in the house at the same time.
• Have sex with people who you have known for a long time.
• Have remote sexual encounters with people online.

@shuggles what makes ypu think society values marriage higher than fleeting sexual encounters and looks down on casual sex? I thought that marriage was decreasing in popularity?

@Floatyoatcake what makes ypu think society values marriage higher than fleeting sexual encounters and looks down on casual sex? I thought that marriage was decreasing in popularity?

Yet, marriage remains popular and the majority of people I went to school with are now married.

If you don't think society looks down on casual sex, why don't you visit the "relationships" section on mumsnet? What do you think their opinion is of men who have lots of fleeting sexual encounters?

Better clear out my kitchen knives then.

Network work people in a swinging website and attend their events!?!?? Tell me that you've fantasised about swinging but never been swinging. My. God. Get that from a channel 5 documentary did you?

Having sex with other people in the house at the same time? Rude. I mean, really. This a multi occ flat share situ, which would piss off all your flat mates, or a social where you just pop off to fuck a rando? Some really weird middle class class arrangement where it's all "we know Gemima is a bit eccentric with the hosting a dinner so she can have a casual fuck, but her beef wellington is ammmmmaaazeeeballz".

Remote sexual encounters with people online? I mean, honestly, that one speaks for itself!

Only one I agree with, vaguely, is having sex with people you've known a long time. But then it can get emotionally messy. But I doubt that's a concern of Mr Logic here.

Yes, I've pointed this out to many friends; men lose interest in sex with the same person somewhere between 6-12months and "go back" to porn if they don't cheat.

I actually think the issue is with longevity and fragile egos. They don't have patience or time for anyone else and therefore cannot fathom women's deeper level of love that grows with deeper knowledge of a partner. They don't spend this time even with their friends getting to truly know them. They don't even read books past mandatory GCSE English so cannot understand different perspectives or other people's relative experiences. As a result they all think they are the most interesting and hilarious/strongest/cleverest etc.

They all want to think they'd be a great stoic Roman Warrior but are more self obsessed Nigel wanking in the shed types.

Thanks, that's interesting. I agree w you about weapons- Republican US women often talk up guns as an equaliser & great for women's safety, but I see that as playing w fire.
I really don't think most women would be satisfied by remote encounters. It's obvs not physical, & worse, there is no guatantee who the person is, whether it's being recorded.

Sex w people in the house at same time. Def safer but as pp said, v awkward asking a friend to wait around!

@ThisBrickOtter Network work people in a swinging website and attend their events!?!?? Tell me that you've fantasised about swinging but never been swinging. My. God. Get that from a channel 5 documentary did you?

This is a strange response. It is quite clear that people that people do use websites such as fabswingers and fetlife to network with other people. Users leave comments on other users profiles after they have met, so you know which people are genuine and trusted. For example, if Steve has been on the site for 5 years and there are 20 or so positive comments on his profile, then you know Steve is likely to be a sincere person and not violent.

If you don't want to listen to me as to how to stay safe, why don't you message one of the women on a swinging website who has met dozens of men, and ask them about the precautions that they take?

Only one I agree with, vaguely, is having sex with people you've known a long time. But then it can get emotionally messy. But I doubt that's a concern of Mr Logic here.

To me, it sounds like you simply aren't actually interested in meeting people for sex, as you seem to have a plethora of excuses as to why you can't meet anyone. That's fine of course- many of us (including myself) are not interested in having sex at the moment.

But why then pretend that you are extremely keen to meet lots of men for sex, but you are having to suppress those urges due to the threat of violence, when this is clearly not the case?

@NordicwithTeen They don't even read books past mandatory GCSE English so cannot understand different perspectives or other people's relative experiences. As a result they all think they are the most interesting and hilarious/strongest/cleverest etc. They all want to think they'd be a great stoic Roman Warrior but are more self obsessed Nigel wanking in the shed types.

Sure. I know the type of man you are talking about, and I hate them too. But clearly there are men who do read beyond GCSE English and do take an interest in the world around them. So why not approach those men instead of the Andrew Tate or Nigel Farage types?

@shuggles the point was about male violence and the threat of it, which results in women adapting their sexual behaviour. The fact that you make some suggestions about some techniques that women can adopt to try to minimise the risks of men hurting them isn't massively relevant in my opinion. Women aren't always free to express their sexuality and sexual desires, and your suggestions of how to circumvent male violence just confirms this in my mind.

Good idea, but often the Andrew Tates of this world disguise themselves as men capable of emotional and self awareness fairly convincingly.

@Floatyoatcake the point was about male violence and the threat of it, which results in women adapting their sexual behaviour.

I got that.

The fact that you make some suggestions about some techniques that women can adopt to try to minimise the risks of men hurting them isn't massively relevant in my opinion. Women aren't always free to express their sexuality and sexual desires, and your suggestions of how to circumvent male violence just confirms this in my mind.

Well it is relevant, because I am saying that women can express themselves sexually if they take the same precautions that other people would take. If someone's response to a few basic precautions is "I don't want to do that because..." then it would suggest that they aren't particularly interested in having sex at the moment (which, again, is fine).

@Floatyoatcake Good idea, but often the Andrew Tates of this world disguise themselves as men capable of emotional and self awareness fairly convincingly.

It's quite easy to filter people who aren't knowledgeable or worldly by asking them questions about history, culture, the last book they read, etc. etc.

I know people who are thick as shit and it comes across quite clearly because they have a distinct glazed-over facial expression that occurs when trying to discuss anything that isn't Tik Tok, Love Island, or shite rap music.

Hmmm...I've been thinking about this issue. I get why people are disgusted by the swinging suggestion, I personally think it's gross. But I recently listened to a podcast about abuse in the BDSM subculture, (Was I In A Cult?) & the woman interviewed said she found the swinging scene comparatively safe, esp compared to BDSM, (fetlife, at least the section of people she connected w there, came off badly).
I have a different perspective on the issue as my relationships are w women. So physical safety is much less of a concern. Generally I would say casual is bit more popular than among women generally, but not much. Personally, I have a high drive but wouldn't have a ONS, not bc I'd find it invasive as many women describe, but just that I wouldn't find intimacy w a stranger fulfilling. FWB can be good, but I agree can be emotionally risky, & is def not for everyone.
Plus I was raised Christian, & while I'm agnostic now, I do agree that casual sex can be dehumanising. Not always.I think the issue now is that higher acceptance of casual sex is putting women under pressure or making them vulnerable to being tricked. If it were just the (smaller) number of women who like it pairing up w the men who do, that'd be fine, but that's not the case.

Interesting and thought provoking @AliasGrace47. Are you saying that casual sex between women seems to be on a not dissimilar scale to yjst btwn men and women?

I was watching a documentary on witchcraft which was discussing why women were so often accused of being witches in comparison to men. The explanation was; as per the 1486 witch hunter's manual, Malleus Maleficarum:
"All witchcraft comes from carnal lust, which is in women insatiable. . . "

So mens fear and hatred of women's sexuality and their higher sex drives seems not to be a new hypothesis!

@Floatyoatcake Are you saying that casual sex between women seems to be on a not dissimilar scale to yjst btwn men and women?

Most cities have at least one gay bathhouse for men.

Why are there no bathhouses for lesbian women?

@shuggles well I don't know whether these meeting places for women exist, that's kind of what i was asking AliasG about. I guess, due to social convention and patriarchy they wouldn't look the same as places that men have created. I certainly know that when I've been approached or 'hit on' by women it's been in very different places and situations then when I've been approached by men.

@Floatyoatcake I guess, due to social convention and patriarchy they wouldn't look the same as places that men have created.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. We are talking about private bathhouses, so they are not subject to "social convention" or "patriarchy." I'm sure that "social convention" throughout history would prefer that gay bathhouses didn't exist, yet, they do.

Women are free to create their own businesses and provide services which cater to female customers. So why are there virtually no lesbian bathhouses?

I've been seeing a lot about lesbian businesses not being as profitable as male gay businesses, which seems to actually stem from them not being allowed to refuse entry to...men.

@NordicwithTeen which seems to actually stem from them not being allowed to refuse entry to...men.

This claim is false. There are exceptions to equality laws when a protected characteristic is relevant to the goods or service being provided. For example, women-only gyms exist. Likewise, women would be legally turned away if they tried to access a gay bathhouse, and the same would be true of the reverse.