Is there a problem with Islam?

[LeafBud7]

My answer to this has always been, no, even if there are problematic elements within Islam especially for women, you can say the same about any culture or ideology, or religion.
I have been reading and thinking more about this recently, and i'm going round in circles. My brother in law is Muslim, and I am going to ask him what he thinks when I next get the chance for a proper chat, also a female colleague who I think would be open to talking about this..
In the meantime, what do you think? Is it as I have always thought, above, or is there something potentially within the religion what makes it more problematic, or is it not the religion itself, but more how things evolve in some communities? Is it all just a imaginary "problem" used by racists to whip up a storm?
One thing is for sure, it seems one is not really allowed to ask these questions in some circles, without being accused of being racist, which I find really unhelpful.

@psifreeze Please quote your source where men are allowed to rape their wives in Islam. That is a pretty huge accusation to make.

https://www.state.gov/report/custom/a944d3578a/#:~:text=Rape%20and%20Domestic%20Violence%3A%20Rape,spousal%20rape%20as%20a%20crime.

Good thing I didn't make that accusation then. I was talking about Saudi Arabia.

Once again it is the misogynistic interpretations at play:

The legality of marital rape under Saudi law reflects the influence of traditional interpretations of Islamic jurisprudence (fiqh) and cultural norms, rather than a direct mandate from Islamic texts like the Quran. Saudi Arabia follows a strict interpretation of Islamic law, known as Wahhabism or Salafism, which relies on conservative interpretations of the Quran and Hadith.

Historically, in some interpretations of Islamic law, the idea of consent within marriage was not explicitly emphasised, leading to the belief that sexual relations were a marital duty that could not be refused by either partner. This has been interpreted by some legal systems, including Saudi law, to mean that marital rape does not exist as a legal concept because a husband is thought to have automatic consent from his wife once they are married.

However, this view is increasingly being challenged by modern scholars and advocates who emphasise the Quran's teachings of mutual respect, kindness, and fairness in marriage. These scholars argue that forcing oneself on a spouse without consent is inconsistent with Islamic principles, regardless of legal frameworks that might allow it.

Saudi Arabia’s legal system is unique in that it does not have a codified family law or criminal law system in the way many other countries do. Instead, judges make rulings based on interpretations of Sharia law, and this can vary. This has led to slow progress in changing attitudes toward issues like marital rape, but advocacy for reform is growing in many parts of the Muslim world. Other Muslim-majority countries have already introduced legal reforms that recognise marital rape as a crime.

Which Islamic countries have outlawed marital rape? I can't find them.

@username101010 wili may be the easiest summary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marital_rape_laws_by_country

Like I said, I looked and can't find any. You said that some Islamic countries have outlawed marital rape, do you know which ones?

@username101010 sorry ,the prior post was by @MilkToast so I should have let her reply to your q.rather than me butting in!

It was Muslim-majority countries, which include Turkey & Tunisia which explicitly state marital rape as a crime.

Lebanon and Malaysia have made some small movements in the right direction but still have a long way to go.

Lebanon:

Article 503 of the Penal Code defines rape as "forced sexual intercourse [against someone] who is not his wife by violence or threat."Law no. 293 (2014) gives a legal "marital right of intercourse".242]However, in May 2014 the Protection of Women and Other Family Members from Domestic Violence Law added new offences of the use of threats or violence to claim the "marital right to intercourse".Critics of the law point out that the threats or violence are the criminal offences but not the rape.

Malaysia:

The concept of rape within marriage is not recognised. However, if a man "causes hurt or fear of death or hurt to his wife or any other person in order to have sexual intercourse with his wife ", he may be imprisoned up to five years if convicted according to Section 375A of the Penal Code (adopted on 7 September 2007).

I checked. Turkey doesn't allow marital rape but tried to bring in a marry your rapist law in 2020. Tunisia also doesn't allow marital rape. The rest do. I don't see that as progress.

Enacting changes towards a better outcome is the very definition of progress. Is it light years away from the ideal, yes, but that doesn’t make it not progress.

Your standards are very low. You have to look at these laws in context, where women aren't treated as deserving of basic human rights. Whilst these governments are thinking about change, women are suffering.

Because I know what the definition of progress is…? Strange that you would make assumptions on what someone’s standards are based on that, but you do you.

You think it's progress for an oppressive country to think about making marital rape illegal.

I think it's progress to treat women like human beings. I'd rather do me.

Impossible to have a reasonable discussion with someone who doesn’t understand basic definitions and then uses it to have some kind of misdirected outrage.

When someone loses a debate, they often resort to personal attacks.

What about having a reasonable discussion with someone who thinks Saudi Arabia is a good place for women? That can also be quite challenging.

What kind of agenda? Having a different opinion to you? Wanting the advancement of women's rights and equality to progress at a pace faster than glacial?

It's very difficult to have a reasonable discussion with someone on a feminism thread who doesn't believe in women's rights. Especially one who is speaking for said women with no expertise. I'm not the one with the 'agenda'.

Islam has a historical record of advancing women’s rights, which is often overlooked. When Islam emerged, it granted women rights that were revolutionary for its time:

1. *Property Rights: Women were given the right to own, inherit, and manage property independently, which was uncommon in many cultures then*
2. *Education: The Prophet Muhammad emphasized education for both men and women, promoting intellectual equality*
3. *Economic Participation: Early Muslim women, including the Prophet’s wife Khadijah, were active in trade and business*
4. *Marriage Rights: Islam introduced reforms to protect women’s rights in marriage and divorce before any other culture. Muslim women do not take their husband's surname after marriage, as they are still their own individual with their own important lineage*.

Modern Interpretations and Cultural Practices
It's important to recognise that while Islamic teachings provide a framework for gender equality, cultural practices can vary widely- this is not Islam. In some communities, traditional practices might not align with the core teachings of Islam, which can lead to misunderstandings and the perception that the religion itself is problematic when it is not. In conclusion, while no religion or culture is free from challenges or misinterpretations, Islam's core teachings provide a progressive stance on women's rights compared to many other historical contexts. Understanding and addressing these issues requires a nuanced view that separates religious teachings from cultural practices

@koolkatxx

I've not been following this thread, but I recently watched a discussion between Muslims and ex-Muslims. The Muslims were stating similar views to you @koolkatxx. One of the ex-Muslims, a man, replied that there were only talking about certain women, about Muslim women. These rights and respect were not given to non-Muslim women, and he quoted passages from the Qu'ran and hadith were there is clear instruction that Muslim men can have sex with non-Muslim enslaved women - that is what we would (rightly) call rape. He said this is what made him lose his faith.

None of the Muslims had a response to this. They all ignored it, and instead replied to a much 'safer' point made by someone else about the hijab.

The fact that Islam may historically supported better (but still not equal) rights for women than its historic counterparts does not erase the serious problems it has regarding women today. The world has moved on to recognise that women have equal standing to men and women should be afforded equal rights in all areas.

That koolkatx post is straight out of ChatGPT.

Chat GPT always says 'it is important to remember/recognise' when you ask it for anything that is in any way slanted for or against any groups of people.