Is there a problem with Islam?

[LeafBud7]

My answer to this has always been, no, even if there are problematic elements within Islam especially for women, you can say the same about any culture or ideology, or religion.
I have been reading and thinking more about this recently, and i'm going round in circles. My brother in law is Muslim, and I am going to ask him what he thinks when I next get the chance for a proper chat, also a female colleague who I think would be open to talking about this..
In the meantime, what do you think? Is it as I have always thought, above, or is there something potentially within the religion what makes it more problematic, or is it not the religion itself, but more how things evolve in some communities? Is it all just a imaginary "problem" used by racists to whip up a storm?
One thing is for sure, it seems one is not really allowed to ask these questions in some circles, without being accused of being racist, which I find really unhelpful.

I think so. Just because something was the case in Baghdad in the year 900, doesn't mean it applies now.

@Honestlymade I think this is the passage that may have been relevant to that ex Muslim “”Abu Sirma said to Abu Sa’id al Khadri (Allah he pleased with him): 0 Abu Sa’id, did you hear Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) mentioning al-‘azl? He said: Yes, and added: We went out with Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi’l Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing ‘azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah’s Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.
Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3371]”””. I think the vast majority of practising moderate Muslims would never think that but certain pervasive interpretations of what is said in the Quran have led to certain Muslim countries adopting aspects into their legal systems that continue to prejudice women.

@untiltheend thank you for the context for this. Context is everything when understanding passages. I’ll look into it more.

It just gives evidence that rape is endorsed in the Qur'an doesn't it?

• @username101010 we have this problem in Christianity hence why we wisely choose to ignore parts of it! For eg. “Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. Numbers 31:17-18”

https://www.salon.com/2014/05/31/11_kinds_of_bible_verses_christians_love_to_ignore_partner/

Fortunately, mainstream Christianity does not adhere to Old Testament laws, such as these!

I could quote loads of stuff from the bible that is entirely unacceptable today.

Of course you could. Which would not be followed by Christians today.
They mostly focus on the New Testament, plus there has been a Reformation.

Some evangelical types do follow it literally but they are outliers. It's highly unlikely a government would start making laws based on a literal interpretation of the bible.

You'd like to think so but seeing what is happening wrt reality Vs belief it only takes a few true believers.😶

Quite! There is no "Christian nation" which has these as their laws.

Unfortunately the abortion policy in some states of the USA is dictated by religious fanatics who do indeed manipulate the law to oppress women.

I agree, religious societies are not good for women and girls.

They do. Fortunately, women have the vote. It's not a theocracy, and really isn't comparable to some Islamic nations.

Apologies I tagged the wrong poster. I was meant to tag @Honestlymade and not @headstone

We're discussing Islamic countries such as Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia which base their laws on the Qur'an.

I understand that the Qur'an has verses on a husband or wife not being allowed to turn down sex. Apparently a wife can turn down sex if she's not well but not as a habit and not to be spiteful. Due to this, marital rape is not recognised in the vast majority of these countries.

It makes no mention of women’s preferences, consent or lack thereof.

The point being that it doesn't mention consent. Without consent it's rape.

Translation is crucial; for example, what does 'great' mean in this context? It seems to me as a query about whether or not the withdrawal procedure is permissible, rather than specifically considering permission to intercourse. The reassurance is that the withdrawal method (and presumably other forms of family planning) are acceptable.

It makes no mention of women’s preferences, consent or lack thereof.

@anotherlevel
You're stating this about a passage on female captives of war? Are you serious?

I found this illuminating.It all rests on interpretation.
https://www.brandeis.edu/projects/fse/muslim/diff-verse.html#:~:text=The%20Qur'an's%20basic%20stance,9%3A71).

However if the Quran is the word of God dictated directly to Muhammad then it can't be ignored. In the end Islam is a political problem when it ignores the modern world of human rights and pursues a worldly agenda rather than a personal spiritual one.

The Importance of Satisfying Men’s Sexual Desire

A woman must always fulfill her husband’s sexual needs and never refuse to have intercourse with him (unless she is menstruating). In fact, it is one of the most important duties that a woman has toward her husband and an inalienable right of a man over his wife. Women should note that if they distance themselves sexually from their husbands, their husbands will come to hate them. Consequently, they may fall in love with another woman. If such a thing happens, they should reproach no one but themselves. The Messenger of Mercy, Prophet Muhammad (s) has said:

“Men have a right over their wives. Women should not refuse to have intimacy with their husbands and should not disobey them.”

In a similar hadith, Imam al-Sadiq (a) said:

“A woman went to the Prophet (s) and asked, ‘What is a man’s right over his wife?’ His Holiness replied, ‘His wife must fulfill his sexual need, even if he is driving a vehicle.’ ”
Of course, this is a way of saying that a woman must always satisfy her husband’s sexual desire whenever possible.

Even if he's driving a vehicle? Safe enough for j10 M25 at the moment, but generally inadvisable.

Hadiths are a whole different problem. They are second hand reports. They say a great deal about the people who wrote them down, unfortunately they are taken as seriously as the Quran itself.

Good grief!

“A woman went to the Prophet (s) and asked, ‘What is a man’s right over his wife?’ His Holiness replied, ‘His wife must fulfill his sexual need, even if he is driving a vehicle.’ ”

Did this come up in response to a specific vehicle-based situation? The mind boggles.

No, there are explicit passages saying that enslaved women are lawful to have sex with. The passages say that what your right hand owns is lawful to you ( meaning enslaved women in the context). There is a part of the Qu' ran where one of Mohammed's wives is complaining to him about him liking to have sex with a particular enslaved woman. He promises not to have sex with her again, but then his wife finds him having sex with her. Then Allah comes down on the side of Mohammed and says to him, ' why would you deny to yourself what I have made lawful to you?.' (There is apparently a written record of one of Mohammed's wives pointing out to him that she has noticed that Allah always comes down in his side in any dispute..). This passage is hard to understand without commentary, but the commentaries I read interpreted it like this.

Passages like these were used by ISIS to defend their rape of women they captured. I have also read an account by a women who travelled to Saudi Arabia and the rich men she spent time with used prostitutes and said this was the equivalent of the slave girls permitted to Muslim men in Mohammed's day.

As for this from @anotherlevel Saying that a person is allowed to have sex with someone within the boundaries of their faith does not imply that the other person has no say in the matter I am sorry but this is awful. Enslaved women, by definition, are not able to give or deny consent. To give this as a justification for men having sex with women they own, is really quite despicable.