Is there a problem with Islam?

[LeafBud7]

My answer to this has always been, no, even if there are problematic elements within Islam especially for women, you can say the same about any culture or ideology, or religion.
I have been reading and thinking more about this recently, and i'm going round in circles. My brother in law is Muslim, and I am going to ask him what he thinks when I next get the chance for a proper chat, also a female colleague who I think would be open to talking about this..
In the meantime, what do you think? Is it as I have always thought, above, or is there something potentially within the religion what makes it more problematic, or is it not the religion itself, but more how things evolve in some communities? Is it all just a imaginary "problem" used by racists to whip up a storm?
One thing is for sure, it seems one is not really allowed to ask these questions in some circles, without being accused of being racist, which I find really unhelpful.

Would this thread still be standing if people were saying this stuff about Judaism?

@MrsSkylerWhite Like it's been said before there's a difference between religion and culture. Unfortunately, people misinterpret religious text and take it and use it for their own means and ends. This has led to the oppressive state that the Afghan women have to live in. It isn't acceptable or permissible to oppress anyone in Islam. Forcing the rules of Islam on anyone isn't allowed. Encouraged, but not forced.

For example, I know it’s been covered before but it’s one that is repeatedly used. Wearing a hijab is a mandatory requirement in Islam. It hides a woman’s beauty from the gaze and temptation of men (Men are also required to wear modest clothing and lower their gaze), reminds a married woman to not be tempted to stray (have an affair), it reminds us to control ourselves in terms of character and manners, to do good and speak kindly amongst loads of other reasons. Every woman’s hijab journey is different and we choose to wear it when we are comfortable and ready to so. It’s never forced upon us by men. Unless the men forces them to which in that case is oppression and like I said isn’t allowed in Islam and being forced to wear it or else! Is a cultural issue and not a religion issue. As humans, we are not perfect and mistakes/wrong choices/bad character etc are all part of that.

This kind of statement just fuels division and hostility. It also enters into conspiracy theory territory, implying that MNHQ have an agenda.

Thank you for taking the time to post this explanation @anotherlevel . Im
aware of the “ there is no compunction in Islam” injunction ( or something very similar, sorry if I am misquoting). I read the Quran a long time ago when I was growing up in a Muslim country and have dipped in and out since. I agree there are lots of sensible rules in there and good guidance for living. I think where I will differ is on not being able to look away from the more overtly discriminatory passages concerning women. They are also in there and while individuals and countries will enforce them to varying degrees or even not at all, they still provide backup for discrimination and outright abuse in some parts of the world, Afghanistan being the obvious example.

What is the punishment for men who do force women to wear the hijab? Or who force women to not speak or sing?

You said that on the other thread. It's very divisive. Also, on that other thread there were some of the worst antisemitic comments I've seen on MN, and that's saying something.
Don't assume that Jews and Judaism get a pass on anything. Especially not on here.

Here's a bit more on the oppression of women by Kokab Rahman

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/islam-doesnt-allow-oppression-women-kokab-rahman?utmsource=share&utmmmedium=guestmobileeweb&utm_campaign=copy

@anotherlevel I'm interested in which Islamic country you think best represents the video and you feel women and girls are treated as you would want?

I was moved by this article this morning, such brave women.

A conference in the Albanian capital aims to agree how women want the international community to react to the Taliban’s assault on their rights – and fight the erasure of their voices’

‘We will never stop fighting’: why Afghan women have risked their lives to attend a summit in Tirana‘

hides a woman’s beauty from the gaze and temptation of men (Men are also required to wear modest clothing and lower their gaze), reminds a married woman to not be tempted to stray (have an affair), it reminds us to control ourselves in terms of character and manners, to do good and speak kindly amongst loads of other reasons. Every woman’s hijab journey is different and we choose to wear it when we are comfortable and ready to so. It’s never forced upon us by men.
Is this still the case when little girls wear it? To hide their beauty from the male gaze? How can they possibly freely decide to wear it when they are 8 years old?

Thank you, @MilkToast . These are very brave women. Turkey and UAE refused to have anything to do with this, which is shameful.

Any reason given as to why? I don't understand why anyone wouldn't support these women.

Yes, it is. ‘Silence is deafening’.

’It was really important to us to try to find a Muslim-majority country close to Afghanistan to host this summit and it was very disappointing that so many refused to do so,” says Koofi. Turkey and the UAE were among governments who either refused to host the summit or simply did not respond to Koofi’s request.’

Kudos to Albania for agreeing when so many refused.

Indeed. The silence is not only deafening, it's a consent to the practices in Afghanistan.

All religion is patriarchal, manipulative bullshit so yes, it's a problem.

For anyone interested, this is what Igli Hasani, the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Albania, said during his opening remarks:

’Our country has been vocal in recognising the courage, resilience, and strength of Afghan women. The international community must provide them with the resources, expertise, and solidarity they need to rebuild their lives and create a society where gender equality is not just a distant dream but a tangible reality,’ said Minister Hasani.

‘Ensuring the rights of women and girls and advancing the ‘Women, Peace, and Security’ agenda remain top priorities for the Albanian government. Long-term peace cannot be achieved without the meaningful inclusion and engagement of women,” said Minister Igli Hasani’.

It's very openly condoning the inhumane and criminal practices of the Taliban. No Islamist country has spoken out about it; there's just silence as though these women simply don't count. There are female MPs in a few Islamic countries as well yet they haven't released any statements.

Yes, tacit approval.

I feel the attempt to pass off the abuse and subjugation of women in Islamic countries as cultural, not religious, is just the No True Scotsman defence, isn’t it?

They're apologists bending over backwards to distance themselves from it while at the same time condoning it.

It follows the same circular argument:

"That's not Islam."

"Well they think it is. If it's not then why are they doing it?"

"It's cultural."

Yes. HTH.

A real world example of why women in this country might feel threatened by the modesty aspect of Islam…taking my 14yr old to a sports event in a particular diverse part of my city ,dressed appropriately for that event in a manner that is the cultural norm in the uk , passing through groups of men who are all ogling her overtly. Is that on the men, who fail to avert their gaze or would that be considered on my daughter for not dressing “modestly”? ( and I know that men of all religions and none have an issue with ogling but I don’t have the same experience in other areas of my city).
I think the aspect of women needing to hide their “beauty” from men is something that is a real problem for western women….we have spent rather a lot of time trying to move away from the idea that a woman who goes out dressed a certain way is “asking for it” even though we know that women of all ages and “beauty” get raped and sexually abused no matter how they are dressed and no matter how they act. So to be an a situation of feeling judged as to your morality ,even just wearing everyday clothes, is really uncomfortable…that aspect of women’s life in the UK has been improving over the course of my life so to be back in a situation where a particular ideology is impacting on our communities is horrible. I believe we are all naked in the sight of God (Hebrews 4.13) hence for me religions that put women’s outward appearance at the top of spiritual requirements is something that has obviously come from man not from God.

I believe radical Islam is a threat to Western Democracy and especially the rights of women. We need to begin having some really serious conversations about this and how this threat will be managed.

Yes I had this conversation with family and friends this week.

The Muslim world needs to rise up and denounce the Taliban or be seen as collaborators. The silence on Afghanistan really shows the full contempt that Muslim countries feel for women.

I stand corrected. I found this from 2023. There are several Islamic countries on the list of countries criticising the Taliban.

Press release
Situation for women and girls in Afghanistan: joint statement from foreign ministers for International Women’s Day

The foreign ministers of 27 countries and the EU High Representative urged the Taliban to reverse restrictions on women and girls’ human rights and freedoms.

8 March 2023
This was published under the 2022 to 2024 Sunak Conservative government

A statement from the foreign ministers of Australia, Bahrain, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Japan, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, Qatar, the Republic of Korea, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Türkiye, the United Arab Emirates, the United Kingdom, and the United States and the High Representative of the European Union.

On the occasion of International Women’s Day, March 8, 2023, we are united in calling attention to the situation in Afghanistan, which, over the past year and a half, has seen one of the steepest declines globally in the respect for the human rights of women and girls. Afghan women and girls have been denied access to secondary education, to higher education, to public and political spaces, and to employment opportunities. Services for supporting victims of gender-based violence have been largely dismantled.
Unless reversed, the harmful effects of these reprehensible measures will be devastating and irreparable for Afghanistan’s economy and society – effects that will be felt by every Afghan. The full respect for the human rights and fundamental freedoms of women and girls and their equal and meaningful participation in society are not only goals in themselves but also are prerequisites for sustainable economic and political development, social cohesion, stability, and peace in Afghanistan.

We unite in acknowledging the extraordinary courage of women and girls in Afghanistan. Despite mounting restrictions and intimidation by the Taliban, they continue to support and contribute to their families and communities. We applaud the many Afghan communities and individuals who have strongly and bravely stood up in support of Afghan women and girls.

We support the calls by the people of Afghanistan for women and girls’ full access to quality education at schools and universities and women’s unrestricted ability to work in all sectors, including humanitarian assistance and basic services delivery, equitable and comprehensive delivery of which is impossible without full participation of women.

We note the December 2022 statement from the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) that the decision to prevent women and girls from accessing education runs contrary to Islamic law. We are deeply concerned that Afghanistan is experiencing one of the world’s largest humanitarian crises, with millions on the threshold of starvation. The Taliban’s edict barring women from working for national and international nongovernmental organizations, and the effects of the edict on some governmental organizations, is already jeopardizing the efforts of humanitarian organizations to reach the more than 28 million Afghans who depend on humanitarian aid to survive.

We acknowledge the key role of the UN in the delivery of humanitarian assistance. Barring women and girls from receiving an education and excluding women from working in crucial sectors will also severely inhibit the much-needed economic recovery of Afghanistan.
This support for the Afghan people is particularly relevant, as we fear that the Taliban will implement further measures restricting women and girls’ exercise of civil, political, economic, cultural, and social rights, with a dire impact on the future of Afghanistan and its people.

Together we urge the Taliban to respect all people of Afghanistan, deliver on their commitments to the Afghan people and the international community, and reverse all decisions and practices restricting women’s and girls’ exercise of their human rights and fundamental freedoms.