Duty sex

[Superlambaanana]

Interesting article in the Irish Times. You need a subscription but it works to use the archiver at archive.ph.

https://www.irishtimes.com/health/your-wellness/2024/08/04/after-years-of-consenting-to-sex-i-didnt-want-i-want-to-take-a-break-from-it-how-do-i-tell-my-husband/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2OPQDps9jVjvdOiwcIJba87GkBcVah3V49cGfNQVmQXcXKBiDda69YkMMaem0Ttx-PrfCPijpgdwzLhcCw

“consent that is given because of internalised pressure to be nice, to be liked, out of a sense of duty, or a desire to connect in some way, even if we don’t necessarily want that connection to be sexual….

“…the societal and cultural sense of duty that is often placed on women to have sex with men or male partners, noting that men’s sexual desire and pleasure is often prioritised over women’s boundaries in a culture that “grooms women from a young age for a life of sexual and emotional sacrifice”.

We need to bring girls up to feel empowered and to respect their own boundaries so that they don't feel obligated to do anything they don't want to do.

I agree. But am not sure how to achieve this in practice.

I've had lots of sex which fits into the category of 'consensual but unwanted' but I can't ever remember anyone specifically saying to me that I should please men or prioritise their needs over my own.

I also can't pinpoint any particular instances where I would have picked up cues to behave in a subservient way to men. I was raised in a household where both parents worked and where tasks and respect were pretty equally shared. Yet I still became socialised to pander to men's expectations.

If we can't identify how this happens, it's going to be difficult to make the right changes to stop it happening in future.

I have never had duty sex nor will I ever.
My last husband left me for this and good riddance.
Men need to understand that their partners and wives are not unpaid sex workers. My feelings are as valid as his and if I don't feel like it it's not happening.

@Gettingbysomehow good for you. It's ridiculous though that (in many cases) the only options are to provide duty/ maintenance sex, or to leave. The idea of men managing their urges to reach a compromise situation never seems to be an option.

I think women giving the 'consented but unwanted' type of sex is pretty much universal. When I've spoken to my friends about it (not that often admittedly) we all sort of shrug and agree it's part of being a woman in a relationship with a man.

He must be able to tell you're you're not enthusiastic though, or maybe we're acting too well. Because of course if he doesn't know there's a problem you can't really blame it on him. At the end of the day, the man does tend to initiate (at least in my relationships anyway), and he's probably just thinking that's what happens. You weren't thinking about sex, but then he turns you on and you both enjoy it.

I didn't get the memo that I was meant to be having sex I don't want. I wasn't there for the meeting where we were all tarred as perpetual victims unable to squeak up.

I find it strange that a man can actually enjoy sex with an unwilling partner. Perhaps he feels a sense of power that she has submitted to his needs? I told my husband to use prostitutes if I wasn't enough for him, and that's exactly what he did.

I think it is a very fine line. @Mumsie23 we're not talking about rape here (although some may categorise unwanted consensual sex as rape, it is done with full consent).

Many women pretend to enjoy this type of sex - fake orgasms etc because it feels good to please someone else. We can all do things we don't particularly enjoy in relationships because we know our partner enjoys it. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. But there has to be give and take. Men often do all the taking with very little giving in response.

Can we please have this conversation without being nasty to others, @cupcaske123 ?

We’re exploring why so many women feel obliged to have sex when they don’t want it. Your response doesn’t further the understanding.

It’s great that you don’t understand the experience so many other women share. Express that better.

I remember withdrawing enthusiasm mid act, when he was being an arse, and being upset to realise that he either didn’t notice or didn’t care.

I can't work you out. You're all over the feminism boards with comments ranging from 'I don't recognise any of these scenarios’ to dismiss the idea that men sometimes display unacceptable behaviour in relationships, to this assertion that women are somehow perpetual victims.

It suggests you don’t believe there is an issue with imbalance between the sexes or any change needed to address it. But then you’re on another thread about an abusive ex, sympathising with the OP and telling her it’s all too common and men are gaslighters.

You seem to want to defend men and blame women as a class but simultaneously signal solidarity with individual women. You can’t have it both ways.

Don't police the thread. It's not your job. I wasn't being nasty, that's your interpretation. I don't buy into the myth that all women have duty sex and I don't appreciate such broad sweeping statements victimising all women.

Who said all women have duty sex or made any sweeping statements?

You’re suggesting this topic can be dismissed and doesn’t need discussing because women shouldn’t be perpetual victims.

How is that helping pinpoint and address something that IS happening?

There's a comment upthread that starts "I think women giving the 'consented but unwanted' type of sex is pretty much universal." Do you not think that's a sweeping statement that speaks if not about "all women" (there is nothing that literally every woman does), is a universalism? (I respect that it's not your comment). I think that's what that's a response to; in other ways, it's also a type of response that frequently pops up on MN (like the posters always claiming that they shave/wear makeup only for themselves, uninfluenced by society's objectification of women even as they perform beauty rituals).

I think it should be possible to talk about something that's a phenomenon on some scale, small or big (YMMV), without framing it in terms of 'all/most women typically do this'. That's unhelpful for the discussion and I think it's also unhelpful and damaging in terms of the practice in general, because it frames it as normal and expected, rather than women who are doing themselves harm out of a sense of obligation.

@Precipice the comment by @cupcaske123 about sweeping statements wasn't about the prevalence of women engaging in duty sex. It was about women being victims "I don't appreciate such broad sweeping statements victimising all women." No one said all women are victims.

There are things that all women do of course- breathing is one example if you really want to be pedantic.

But to address what I think is the general thrust of your comment -

I believe that a large majority of women do engage in duty sex. I don't have data to support that beyond my own experience, reading and conversations with other women.

I find it is "normal and expected", and not just endured by a few women who ought to know better which seems to be the thrust of your and @cupcaske123 's points, which ironically do actually victimise women.

I think it's complicated and that's why I just posted the article with a couple of excerpts and no personal opinion as the OP.

What I'm more interested in Is hearing whether women think duty sex is any different or worse than doing the dishes - not awful, not the best fun either, but needs done to maintain a functioning household. Or is duty sex unacceptable/ heinous/ rape?

I honestly don't know. But I do wish MN feminism threads wouldn't always degenerate into a fight about whether women as a whole class or individual female posters are good or evil/ virtuous or to blame/ right or wrong. There are more interesting issues at play than petty finger pointing!

I never meant to say that because women give their men duty sex, that means we're all victims.

Sometimes I have sex with my husband when I'd rather read my book. No victim here, it's just part of being with him and I'm 100% fine with it. He doesn't whine or huff when I do say no, which is more than I can say about some men I've known.

You seem to want to defend men and blame women as a class but simultaneously signal solidarity with individual women. You can’t have it both ways.

I'm not blaming women as a class, I'm protesting someone saying that it's something all women do and is universal. It's not something all women do, it's something some women do.

I can show solidarity to whomever I wish. Women like men are not one homogeneous mass and I refuse to dehumanise people.

The article was not talking about non consensual sex or abuse. That was made very clear. Her partner was not coercing her into sex or sulking. She chose to have sex she didn't want for her own reasons.

I didn't say that men don't sometimes display unacceptable behaviour, everyone does at some point. I said that I didn't recognise the examples given in the OP.

You seem to be under the impression that because you and a few people you know have had some similar experiences, that 4 billion other women have as well. I pointed out in the other thread that not all relationships have the same dynamic.

It's very obvious from the Relationship board here, that some women are in abusive relationships. That doesn't mean that all women are being abused and all women are having sex they don't want to maintain a relationship.

ETA I'd never say all men are gaslighters because I don't make sweeping generalisations. I said the OP was being gaslit by an abuser.

I think having sex you don’t really want to have at times is normal. Sans coercion, force etc. Biology is at play.

@cupcaske123 you make some strange and unfounded assumptions. What's with the determination to say people are branding all men or all women as the same? No one is doing that. I have never suggested all women experience the same relationship dynamic or that 'all men are like that'. It seems more like a diversionary tactic than genuine engagement with a topic.

I find your posts very strange. I also find your willingness to engage with some of the male trolls on these boards rather suspicious.

Possibly also 'niceness' or agreeableness which Jordan Peterson claims is a biological propensity for women.

I couldn't give a monkeys if you find my posts strange nor do I care what you think about who I engage with. I in turn find it strange that you have the arrogance to assume anyone cares.

Not all women are going to agree with you and you seem to take it as a personal affront when they don't. That's your problem.

@Superlambaanana how about trying again, avoiding anything cupcake feels is sweeping, so we can try and have the conversation again? It’s an interesting one and worth a look.

Perhaps a guideline in your post about joining in the conversation rather than telling everyone else they are wrong, if you can find a way to word it 🤣!

It really pisses me off when someone tries to stop other people talking because they don’t like the conversation.

I do some things willingly for the 'good of the relationship' (and that occasionally includes sex) that aren'twhat I'dprefer to be doing at that moment in time. I sometimes would rather drinking a glass of wine on my own, than listening attentively to OH tell me about his most recent bike ride, cooking him a nice dinner or having sex... but I do those things to show I love/ care / l want to do something to make him feel valued. As long as I come away from those experiences feeling pleased because I've done something nice for my partner that's OK!

That's very different to having sex because I'm scared he'll leave me or shag someone else if I don't, or because I want to be cool or popular (which I did also do when I was younger and stupider!). Younger me also confused feeling desired or pursued with feeling loved and I had sex which I now realise I didn't want, in order to feel 'loved'.