Duty sex

[Superlambaanana]

Interesting article in the Irish Times. You need a subscription but it works to use the archiver at archive.ph.

https://www.irishtimes.com/health/your-wellness/2024/08/04/after-years-of-consenting-to-sex-i-didnt-want-i-want-to-take-a-break-from-it-how-do-i-tell-my-husband/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2OPQDps9jVjvdOiwcIJba87GkBcVah3V49cGfNQVmQXcXKBiDda69YkMMaem0Ttx-PrfCPijpgdwzLhcCw

“consent that is given because of internalised pressure to be nice, to be liked, out of a sense of duty, or a desire to connect in some way, even if we don’t necessarily want that connection to be sexual….

“…the societal and cultural sense of duty that is often placed on women to have sex with men or male partners, noting that men’s sexual desire and pleasure is often prioritised over women’s boundaries in a culture that “grooms women from a young age for a life of sexual and emotional sacrifice”.

@cupcaske123 that's a really unnecessarily aggressive response to me disagreeing with your assertion that people are making sweeping generalisations. You're accusing me of taking personal offence at people not agreeing with me, but that's exactly what you are doing.

@KeirSpoutsTwaddle I don't understand your point- are you saying I am trying to stop other people talking? How am I doing that?

No! I’m agreeing with you. Wishing we’d been allowed to have the conversation instead of the thought police informing us we were doing it wrong.

Cupcake seems to feel the entire conversation is sweeping so I don't see how I could avoid their complaints and still hold a discussion about women having duty sex. My interest was in whether the duty sex is a good or bad thing, a societal norm, a sign of a strong relationship or a patriarchal subjugation of women etc. Instead the thread has descended into the usual NAMALT/ NAWALT nonsense.

@KeirSpoutsTwaddle ah so you are agreeing cupcaske is being problematic here? I am actually still interested in what your view of duty sex is @cupcaske123 but so far I can't tell what it is.

Insightful post. Do you think your DH also does things he doesn't necessarily want to do, but does them to make you feel good?

I wish you would stop with the "4 billion other women" comeback, it's disingenuous at best, or just plain nonsense. How many of those 4 billion other women live in third world countries, or in societies and cultures where significant and life threatening oppression is possibly greater than you can ever imagine? A majority, I'd guess. The "4 billion" point doesn't stand scrutiny.

Yes, agreed.

There's a distinction between thinking to yourself, 'meh, I'm not really in the mood but it's fine' and being coerced, forced or feeling compelled.

I don't think duty sex is helpful for this reason. And I agree with op who said yes, sometimes we do things for our partners (and in a healthy relationship, it's reciprocal).

Very different to a partner who sees your unwillingness and discomfort and forces themselves on you, or who makes you feel like they'll cheat on you if you don't submit and satisfy him.

Having been coerced into sex I didn't want during relationships and CSA I now would never be in that position again.
But, this has taken me a long time to get here.
I'm single, and my opinion of men is not great, so unlikely to be in that situation again.
I would rather be celebate, less anxiety.
Not sure about sexual fawning being learnt behaviour but certainly the example my parents set of a 'normal ' relationship was so far off the scale it is no surprise that I acquiesced to men's requests very easily and early.
Is it something we should teach our kids? I think so.
Firm boundaries in life generally would be great tools to give all kids.

You weren't thinking about sex, but then he turns you on and you both enjoy it.

This pretty much describes quite a lot of sex I've had. Tbh usually I initiate it, but if DH does and I'm not in the mood, I always get into it. And I'm perfectly happy to say no, but I realise that there are lots of things we do, not just sex, that we don't really want to but see as duty.

I find it strange that a man can actually enjoy sex with an unwilling partner.

DH would never know I am unwilling because if I am I say no and if it's "duty" I don't say no, so how would he know?

DH would never know I am unwilling because if I am I say no and if it's "duty" I don't say no, so how would he know?

Right, that would just be rape

So there seems to be something of a consensus emerging here. (I must be careful not to make sweeping statements or group you all as one to avoid another derail here!)

Many of you appear to be of the view that duty sex is fine. It can even end up being enjoyable in the moment and appears to have the potential for longer term positives too - harmonious relationships etc.

On another thread, a woman was distressed about her DH basically rolling onto her in bed and carrying on while she lay there, not resisting, but not participating either. She was conflicted about whether it was ok or not. Most replies expressed horror and called it rape. I seem to remember one poster saying the only consent is enthusiastic consent.

How does duty sex sit with that?

If you just roll up and put your penis in a woman without checking for a 'yeah, go ahead' (or even sign that she's awake?) that would legally be classed as rape.

That's not even duty sex, that's just having your body violated :-/

See that’s not ok.

Women are not wank socks.

When Duty sex leads to blurring boundaries like that, then we need phrases like enthusiastic consent.

Jeez. Enthusiastic consent doesn’t require Duracell bunny behaviour, but a woman who isn’t engaging with what’s occurring hasn’t consented.

It’s the blow up doll approach. As long as she doesn’t say no, you’re golden.

Are you really okay with that?

I always go off sex after a couple of years. After tons of relationships I feel like I need it to be a fresh experience to enjoy it. As a consequence I've decided that "ever after" story isn't for me.

I must admit I'm now questioning my whole sexual history and reevaluating it now that I have been Single with a capital S (happy and not looking) for a few years.

Did I ever actually enjoy sex or was it just about bonding, people pleasing and feeling 'normal'.

Certainly in relationships I always hated it when the sex died off, but no so much because I missed the physical sensation of it, but because I always felt ashamed that I wasn't in a perfect/ fully functioning relationship.

And every time Ive had sex the man has always climaxed. Or at least 90% of the time. I'd say it was less than 5% for me. Yet I have no physical problems. So did I just not do it properly or what?! Whatever the answer, I don't miss it.

I didn’t experience genuine physical sexual pleasure until I was 25. For a decade before that I was having sex with very normal frequency, because it just seemed the done thing. It didn’t hurt, therefore what’s the harm - it’s just part of a standard relationship, isn’t it? I genuinely never thought it bothered me at the time.

I did become disillusioned and jaded. When the honeymoon phase and mental fun of the novelty is over, it just feels an imposition on your body, and it left me feeling very empty. I still dated a lot but stopped having relationships because I didn’t want to be in a position of frequently rejecting sexual advances - having to handle emotional fallout or be questioned about it.

I do find it disturbing looking back, they were all perfectly nice men and I was absolutely willing but I was a silent, inactive participant, every single time. How could they have enjoyed it? I realise now having sex you don’t want really just puts you off more in the future.

I hugely enjoy sex now. But honestly in a lot of ways I think that’s because I had a period of celibacy, had therapy and then slowly drifted into a an experimental relationship where I took absolute control of my sexual desires and decisions. I only have sex on my terms, when I want it. And it is bliss.

I had a lot of sex I didn’t particularly want, but consented to and even appeared an eager participant in, when I was younger (and since I’ve been older too to be fair). All the reasons that have been posted on this thread really - wanting love, wanting connection, wanting to fit in - wanting to be desired/ fit in with the desirable/ attractive girls.

I’d say in terms of more casual relationships/ encounters that far outweighed the sex I had purely because I wanted the physical experience/ enjoyment of having sex with that particular person at that time. I have had a fair amount of that kind of sex too, but it’s definitely less!

In terms of my marriage - we joke about ‘maintenance sex’ where we both make the effort even though we’re tired/ distracted/ not particularly in the mood. My husband never pesters and is never offended if I say no - historically he’s probably had a lower sex drive than me anyway. These days mine probably matches his, so we’re both less likely to initiate but we also both recognise that it’s important and helps us to feel closer, and that we both enjoy it when we do make it happen!

We were 4 years ttc - there was an absolutely fuckload of ‘duty sex’ during that time I can tell you. On both parts. Honestly I think it’s put me off the whole thing a bit since!

Certainly in relationships I always hated it when the sex died off, but no so much because I missed the physical sensation of it, but because I always felt ashamed that I wasn't in a perfect/ fully functioning relationship.

This resonates hard. The thing I found hardest about DH having a lower sex drive than average when we got together wasn’t that I actually missed the sex so much as this. How could this be the perfect relationship if he wasn’t trying to shag me every ten minutes? And what did that say about me and my desirability as a woman which - given what I’ve posted above about my younger years - was so tied up in my self worth. Also probably made ‘duty sex’ on my part more likely as when he was up for it I obviously wanted to encourage that and take the opportunity, whether I was exactly ‘in the mood’ or not.

These days it’s more evenly matched, and I’ve stopped thinking of it as this key indicator of my own worth or of the strength of our relationship too.

Personally I feel v uncomfortable about the whole idea of duty sex. I don't think it's inherently an abuse of the man's power, especially as often the man may think his partner's enjoying it.
But I do think it's a sign of greater societal pressure on women. Is duty sex much of a thing for men? Would large numbers of men set aside their own pleasure & have sex just to make their partner happy? (I'm not incl duty sex the woman enjoys in this). Is it partly due to men generally having higher libidos so wanting sex more often? But this doesn't give them a right to sex. I feel like it springs from the old attitudes about 'marital rights/duty' etc where a husband physically forcing his wife might've been frowned on at least by some, but wasn't considered a crime until 1991. If there is a libido mismatch to the point where duty sex is a regular thing, I kind of feel the partners aren't compatible. I also think it could easily be twisted by abusive partners to manipulate more vulnerable women into thinking it's what 'everyone does', which would be harder to do if duty sex weren't a thing.
I'm bisexual & I wonder if duty sex is as common in lesbian, or for that matter, gay male relationships. I feel probs not, tho for different reasons, but ofc could be wrong.
Personally, I think having sex just to please is on a different level to, say, watching TV you don't like or listening to partner talking about a hobby that bores you. Obvs cases are all different : a woman mainly having non-enjoyable duty sex is v different to a woman having the odd bit of duty sex she enjoys.
But personally I have a very hard Boundary around having sex that I don't personally want to please someone else, and I wouldn't expect a partner, male or female, to have duty sex either.
(I'm 18 and haven't had a bf or gf yet so in a way I feel a bit of a fraud for commenting!)

Not so much of women being told to put out, more a case of this narrative:

-Men need sex

-Men get blue balls

-Men demand it or get sulky

-People are still in marriages where it was legal to rape, so culturally it is still the norm.

-Men have a higher sex drive than women

-Women should "be kind"

-Women are portrayed as prizes for men's heroics, therefore obliged.

It is cultural. It's the subliminal messages I think.

I also find it interesting to look at old MN threads to see how women's attitudes to bodily autonomy in marriage have changed. One around 2005 thread about a partner nonconsensesually initiating sex during sleep had one poster saying she was happy for her partner to intiate sex during sleep and continue while she 'just lay there' once awake. She seemed to think it unreasonable to 'cordon off a body area just bc it's an orifice' and thought her body was also her partner's, tbf this went both ways. Also said that it wasn't wrong for a partner to assume consent from a sleeping person if they normally wanted sex when awake. Ok I guess if she was ok w it, but personally I found it creepy as hell, & she ignored that the op hadn't agreed this w her .partner Many disagreed, but some agreed, one saying she'd let her dh have a quickie while she was watching TV, obvs on a different level to sleep 'sex' but it still feels a bit humiliating to me for a woman to put out when clearly not really engaged w it. It feels different to ne if she wants to give it a go actively..Still sorting my thoughts out

I'm bisexual & I wonder if duty sex is as common in lesbian, or for that matter, gay male relationships. I feel probs not, tho for different reasons, but ofc could be wrong.

I thinking probably does occur, and is likely to whenever there is a mismatched sex drive. I think it's pretty rare that couples have identical sex drives, and it changes with time anyway.
I've definitely heard of same sex couples having problems with not enough sex for one partner, so I imagine some duty sex does occur.

I agree with most of this. Also, to my neuroatypical mind (ADHD), statements about “all women” just make me feel alienated from other women - like they’re a club, and I’ve somehow failed to meet the membership requirements. (Recently on a AIBU thread, I had other posters flat-out say that they didn’t believe me when I said I’d never been sexually harassed or assaulted by men, because “every woman has experienced this.”)

I’ve never had sex that I felt pressured into having. I have one of those contrary “you’re not the boss of me” personalities - if I go to a restaurant and someone says, “You have to try the steak,” there is a 95% chance I am not ordering that damn steak. And if I was already planning to order it, I say something like, “That’s what I was thinking of ordering.” That doesn’t mean we can’t acknowledge “duty sex” as a widespread problem.

It does really surprise me when women say they haven’t experienced sexual harassment, and I wonder whether they have been blessed with some kind of ‘hands off’ vibe or whether they have experiences similar to other women but have categorised them differently or even been unaware of them.
Categorising is important. There are a couple of incidents I would class as assault or harassment that another woman might not.

Back to the original question about duty sex, I feel no one should be doing something to someone else’s body, unless that body is enjoying it. I am happy to actively choose to do a thing that gives me no pleasure but pleases someone else. I’m not happy to have done to me something I don’t get pleasure from.

I had a partner that tended to do a couple of things that actively turned me off or even hurt. At best, bored me. It wasn’t particularly intentional on his part, he’d just slip into that way of touching, he enjoyed what he was touching, and totally forgot that it’s my frickin body and I don’t like it! Think feathery stroking for hours or something like that. Boring, not enjoyable, my body isn’t here for you to play with.

Rant over.