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Feminism: chat

Unacceptable things that men do in relationships

191 replies

Superlambaanana · 02/08/2024 10:43

...which women put up with but shouldn't.

I'd like to create a list of stuff women do for men and put up with from men because society has programmed us to - and which we often don't even recognise as unacceptable.

I'll start.

Expecting their wife/ girlfriend to be dressed up for them all the time while they make far less effort in return.

Huffing like a child if they don't get what they want/ have to do a domestic task they don't want to do (but expect their wife/ girlfriend to do anything and everything without complaint).

Women brushing stuff under the carpet to protect his ego. e.g. pretending something is fine because he bought it when in actual fact it's horrible/ doesn't work/ was a total waste of money.

Women doing days or weeks of exhausting prep for family events like Christmas and barbecues, only for men to do the last but of cooking and claim all the glory.

OP posts:
Superlambaanana · 03/08/2024 21:37

abracadabra1980 · 03/08/2024 16:03

The purchasing of birthday cards and gifts and WRAPPING THEM WHICH I ABHOR, for every, single fucker in both families and wider acquaintances of which there can be far too many.

Ditto organising children's birthday parties.

Ditto organising Easter, Halloween and Xmas and any other social event.

None of the above would happen without women. I'm older than many of you on here so maybe this will change, but I doubt it.

And other women saying "oh I know, but it's just men isn't it?" as if we should all just put up with it then.

OP posts:
XChrome · 03/08/2024 22:14

VictorianBigot · 03/08/2024 21:28

As if there is an endless supply of men who treat women as equals

Yeah, I'm not sure where all these nice, respectful, treat-women-as-equals men are. I'm sure they exist but where would I find one? Every time I thought I'd found one, I turned out to be horribly mistaken. I gave up

Yes, it's simple math to deduce that at least some of these women who are insisting they have never dealt with men like that are not being fully honest with themselves about it. Even if their husbands are saints, they would have at some point had a boyfriend, a boss, a relative or a friend/husband of a friend who was a shit. They don't know for sure how all those men behave in relationships, so since they don't know that, they can't legitimately say these men are not like that. Their women friends might not be honest about it. There's a lot of shame women carry about how men treat them.

The other argument being proffered, that we cause it by "choosing" the wrong men is bogus, because even if that was the case, it's an admission that a lot of men are shit and we have to be careful not to end up with one. So any way you cut it, even the women saying they don't know men like that are acknowledging that a lot of men are like that.

cassiatwenty · 03/08/2024 22:23

I notice that a lot of men start relationships by pushing your boundaries and seeing how much they can get and what you will put up with.

If you don't comply, they do this :) or 🤣 and sulk to get their way.

I don't want to say all men are like this but I do see a lot of BS and disrespect and mansplaining on a daily basis (not to me though)

One of the worst advices I havr ever gotten in my life is "just be nice", I got into so much trouble going by that.

cassiatwenty · 03/08/2024 22:28

I also stated this elsewhere. Sometimes I will disagree with someone (this is just an example) on AIBU and maybe we will get into some spat that will be quickly resolved.

But men I met online were stalking me, harassing me, tortured me AND they got away with it.

I never had women do this do me.

Applogies if my post seems like misandry, I'm just speaking from my own personal experience.

Superlambaanana · 03/08/2024 22:37

So this thread didn't turn out the way I expected at all. I was hoping for a list of things that women routinely put up with or do in relationships which they really ought not to. I had the, admittedly somewhat lofty notion that perhaps if we collectively got better at identifying bad/ selfish/ controlling/ entitled/ patriarchal behaviour we'd all get better at calling it out. And if we felt more empowered to call it out, we could perhaps help curb it.

What I got was a mad rush of 'my Nigel is perfect'/ NAMALT and some posters getting really quite hysterical about the very idea that men do anything unacceptable or women would do anything because of societal or patriarchal pressures. If I'd posted in Chat or Relationships I might not have been surprised, but I am surprised that some women seem to follow the feminism boards but not agree with Feminism, or believe that it doesn't need to exist, and in at least one case actually didn't even understand what Feminism is.

Why is it that life (and MN) is full of women who are so blind to the inequity in society between men and women? Blind to the fact (and it is an immutable fact) that in the vast majority of relationships women have the shit end of the stick?

Why are women so complicit in our own oppression by men? We not only willingly put up with too much, we go out of our way to please in return for far, far less than we ever give. And that even extends to vociferously defending men and the patriarchy we live in.

We will never have equality if women are themselves so determined to reject it.

OP posts:
WoopsLiza · 04/08/2024 07:39

Hmm I just don't agree that women should take the blame for men's behaviour in any way so I wouldnt describe women shouting Not My Nigel as compicit

Women appease men because men as a class are aggressive and men as a class men hold power over their stability/ family saftey or financial stability. And women come to terms with that in lots of ways. NMN is just another way that women cope with the epidemic of violence and the precarity of women as a class in relation to men. I don't think it's right to judge women for that although I do agree it's annoying when some women seem compulsively driven to deny deny deny that there is anything going on. They are entitled to manage their own corner of the patriarchy in whatever way they need to imo, although I do always wonder why they need to try and shut other women up who want to discuss their own lives, situations and experiences.

A pp talked about the shame that women carried in relation to how men treat them. This is the hallmark of an abusive dynamic - believing that who a person treats you is a reflection on you rather than a reflection of who that other person is. I don't think women should be shamed, either because of how men treat them or because of how they chose to cope with their lives under patriarchy, including the ways they end up unable to show solidarity with other women suffering because somehow admitting that suffering is a treat to their Nigel's reputation.

WoopsLiza · 04/08/2024 07:42

Tldr I think if we want a meaningful feminism then we need to be in solidarity with all women, including those who don't even see a need for feminism, or those who argue against women's interests and those who voluntarily police feminist discussions with anecdata about how they and their husbands are fine, actually.

Superlambaanana · 04/08/2024 07:53

@WoopsLiza I agree with you that we shouldn't demonise women who defend their Nigels because of course they are victims of patriarchal brainwashing.

But the original intention of this thread, and many others on MN, has been completely suffocated by the NMN views.

Between women screaming NMN and men commenting on MN threads (always along the same lines, ie men are all perfect, women are just too stupid to see it) it's really difficult to have a feminist conversation. The odd reply which is thoughtful and grounded in feminist theory and experience gets through, but overall, the NMN brigade overwhelm. It feels akin to the trans lobby's 'no debate' stance.

OP posts:
Hateam · 04/08/2024 08:57

abracadabra1980 · 03/08/2024 16:03

The purchasing of birthday cards and gifts and WRAPPING THEM WHICH I ABHOR, for every, single fucker in both families and wider acquaintances of which there can be far too many.

Ditto organising children's birthday parties.

Ditto organising Easter, Halloween and Xmas and any other social event.

None of the above would happen without women. I'm older than many of you on here so maybe this will change, but I doubt it.

I just don't understand why you buy cards and gifts for his relatives.

If you don't want to do that, don't do it. If it,'s a problem; it's his problem.

But don't do things that are not your job then moan about doing them.

Superlambaanana · 04/08/2024 10:10

I assume @abracadabra1980 buys the gifts because if she didn't none would be purchased and the in-laws would be offended. Their ire would be directed at her, not her DH because society says 'well he's a man isn't he? They never think about these things' and thus let him off the hook for any responsibility for doing it while simultaneously shaming the DW.

As for organising Christmas and other events, again it wouldn't happen without women and DC would lose out as a result.

OP posts:
Hateam · 04/08/2024 10:22

I do see your point. I just don't agree.

Just stop buying for your in laws.

CantBelieveNaive · 04/08/2024 10:38

Superlambaanana · 03/08/2024 22:37

So this thread didn't turn out the way I expected at all. I was hoping for a list of things that women routinely put up with or do in relationships which they really ought not to. I had the, admittedly somewhat lofty notion that perhaps if we collectively got better at identifying bad/ selfish/ controlling/ entitled/ patriarchal behaviour we'd all get better at calling it out. And if we felt more empowered to call it out, we could perhaps help curb it.

What I got was a mad rush of 'my Nigel is perfect'/ NAMALT and some posters getting really quite hysterical about the very idea that men do anything unacceptable or women would do anything because of societal or patriarchal pressures. If I'd posted in Chat or Relationships I might not have been surprised, but I am surprised that some women seem to follow the feminism boards but not agree with Feminism, or believe that it doesn't need to exist, and in at least one case actually didn't even understand what Feminism is.

Why is it that life (and MN) is full of women who are so blind to the inequity in society between men and women? Blind to the fact (and it is an immutable fact) that in the vast majority of relationships women have the shit end of the stick?

Why are women so complicit in our own oppression by men? We not only willingly put up with too much, we go out of our way to please in return for far, far less than we ever give. And that even extends to vociferously defending men and the patriarchy we live in.

We will never have equality if women are themselves so determined to reject it.

I agree totally with what you are saying. 🥰
I question if people railing against your points are even women who have lived in our society? Honestly,
There's a Taylor Swift video going around so that when women question the bad behaviour of men the fact that they question it is treated like how the original bad behaviour should be treated... it's so true!
I've adapted and worked around my partner, his Dad and brother's bad behaviour as it's the "norm" in their family but have just hit 50 and realised that me questioning my sanity and behaviour norms is correct and they are in the wrong and the mad ones. Karma did get them in the end! 😜
Women do 99% of the invisible work and men 1% of the visible & take the glory work. They don't even see, hear or acknowledge any of that mental, physical and emotional baggage, as it's traditionally "women's work" - they've never had to do it or register it so why would they?
They need to walk in our shoes 👠👠 and see how they like it. 🔔It's the only way.
Also can I add that I believe we glamorise the fact that the majority of men have careers, status and cash as a golden chalice, when in fact it's hugely stressful and a lot of men die early because of this burden.
However I've no doubt women do the huge majority of grunt work and men skip along totally unaware of the work involved, like small children, when it comes to the home and then wonder why we don't feel sexy!?!

Mostly it's because we are exhausted and resent them for not sharing the load when home.
I don't believe all these NMN. It's not my 50 years lived experience at all. The only men I know who seem to share some of the load are in couples without children who both work full time and earn good salaries.
Also yes a feminist grouping to identify and kick back on these tropes is perfectly reasonable and progressive.
I'm 100% with you.
To answer your question, 😜I've been with partner over 10 years and took on a lot of his family duties after marriage until I got totally fed up with it. I stopped choosing cards, buying cards, buying stamps,putting them under his nose, nudging him and posting cards to his side of the family I'd met once at the wedding. I stopped it all and no-one cares or misses that duty but I have a good few hours of my life back to do something more pleasurable to me !! 💪
You have to identify it to change it!! 😜xxx

Superlambaanana · 04/08/2024 10:40

@Hateam I agree with you that women should stop doing such things but it's hard to push back against the heavy weight of expectations. If lots of women collectively and simultaneously said 'enough is enough' then I think things could change. #metoo has shown that women can push back when we all speak together.

OP posts:
XChrome · 04/08/2024 21:06

WoopsLiza · 04/08/2024 07:39

Hmm I just don't agree that women should take the blame for men's behaviour in any way so I wouldnt describe women shouting Not My Nigel as compicit

Women appease men because men as a class are aggressive and men as a class men hold power over their stability/ family saftey or financial stability. And women come to terms with that in lots of ways. NMN is just another way that women cope with the epidemic of violence and the precarity of women as a class in relation to men. I don't think it's right to judge women for that although I do agree it's annoying when some women seem compulsively driven to deny deny deny that there is anything going on. They are entitled to manage their own corner of the patriarchy in whatever way they need to imo, although I do always wonder why they need to try and shut other women up who want to discuss their own lives, situations and experiences.

A pp talked about the shame that women carried in relation to how men treat them. This is the hallmark of an abusive dynamic - believing that who a person treats you is a reflection on you rather than a reflection of who that other person is. I don't think women should be shamed, either because of how men treat them or because of how they chose to cope with their lives under patriarchy, including the ways they end up unable to show solidarity with other women suffering because somehow admitting that suffering is a treat to their Nigel's reputation.

Agreed. Simple NMN posts are one thing, but the gaslighting NMN posts where they accuse us of imagining how men behave in relationships or say that it is actually women's fault, otoh, is complicity.
I think they do this because they do feel shame about how men have treated them. Some people think the way to reduce shame is to shame others, and that's just not okay.

JenniferBooth · 04/08/2024 21:11

Anyone else been watching Mums On Strike?

XChrome · 04/08/2024 21:13

WoopsLiza · 04/08/2024 07:42

Tldr I think if we want a meaningful feminism then we need to be in solidarity with all women, including those who don't even see a need for feminism, or those who argue against women's interests and those who voluntarily police feminist discussions with anecdata about how they and their husbands are fine, actually.

Solidarity with the people who are working against us? Sorry, but no way.
I'm always going to call out bullshit like; "men aren't really like that, you're just imagining it/have unreasonable expectations/choose bad men" when I see it.
That doesn't mean I hate those women, but I absolutely do not trust them. I have been burned by women like that, who supported an abuser against me.

Superlambaanana · 04/08/2024 22:34

JenniferBooth · 04/08/2024 21:11

Anyone else been watching Mums On Strike?

Hadn't heard of this but will check it out. Sounds like exactly what I'm talking about - calling it out in a way that has some positive effect.

www.thesun.co.uk/fabulous/29509870/mums-on-strike-channel-5-walked-out-family/amp/

Carl seems like such a catch too. All the leisure gear and tattoos are so alluring. His ex fiancee is a model. But she doesn't dress up for him because women don't do that 😂😝

OP posts:
CrouchingLiger · 04/08/2024 22:55

Strategic incompetence and entitlement in this house. We had an issue with the oven this evening where it cut out so wasn't heating the food properly. I'd 75% cooked a meal of sausages and yorkshire puds when he announced he was going for a lie down and I should call him when the food is ready. He never offers to cook for me, so I can have a rest on an evening, so it's something I'm not eager to to do for him. When he eventually woke up and discovered the oven wasn't heating properly, I bunged everything in the air fryer to finish it off and headed out to buy a bottle of wine. He started panicking and asking me what he needed to do etc. The guy basically lives off eating sausages and the yorkshires were already cooked, so I asked him what exactly the problem was and he had no answer for me. All he had to do was make sure nothing set on fire and perhaps turn the sausages if they were getting too well done (which they didn't).

I didn't realise they'd remade Mum's on strike. I'm watching now but why do I have the feeling little will have changed since it's debut?!

VictorianBigot · 04/08/2024 23:12

I'm always going to call out bullshit like; "men aren't really like that, you're just imagining it/have unreasonable expectations/choose bad men" when I see it.

Chances are the NGMs do know men like that. If one in four women have been raped, and one in four children have been sexually abused, who exactly is committing all these crimes? The same handful of men? Or…

Millions of men ‘would sexually abuse children if secrecy was assured’

https://www.thetimes.com/article/67268ee0-6676-49e7-91f1-90937a02c90e?shareToken=2fc7b724dec3c3bee2b4b51fa3d81bfb

In a study involving 4,500 men from the UK, Australia and the United States by Edinburgh University’s “Childlight” child safety institute, more than one in 20 said they would have sexual contact with a child between the ages of ten and 14 if they knew it would be kept secret.

About one in seven (15 per cent) of those surveyed said they would consider sexual contact with a child if they were certain no one would find out. Researchers said the proportion “equates to millions of men across the three countries if applied to current population census data”.

Millions of men ‘would sexually abuse children if secrecy was assured’

Millions of men would have sexual contact with a child if they were certain that no one would find out, research has suggested.

https://www.thetimes.com/article/67268ee0-6676-49e7-91f1-90937a02c90e?shareToken=2fc7b724dec3c3bee2b4b51fa3d81bfb

XChrome · 05/08/2024 00:08

VictorianBigot · 04/08/2024 23:12

I'm always going to call out bullshit like; "men aren't really like that, you're just imagining it/have unreasonable expectations/choose bad men" when I see it.

Chances are the NGMs do know men like that. If one in four women have been raped, and one in four children have been sexually abused, who exactly is committing all these crimes? The same handful of men? Or…

Millions of men ‘would sexually abuse children if secrecy was assured’

https://www.thetimes.com/article/67268ee0-6676-49e7-91f1-90937a02c90e?shareToken=2fc7b724dec3c3bee2b4b51fa3d81bfb

In a study involving 4,500 men from the UK, Australia and the United States by Edinburgh University’s “Childlight” child safety institute, more than one in 20 said they would have sexual contact with a child between the ages of ten and 14 if they knew it would be kept secret.

About one in seven (15 per cent) of those surveyed said they would consider sexual contact with a child if they were certain no one would find out. Researchers said the proportion “equates to millions of men across the three countries if applied to current population census data”.

Edited

Oh, absolutely. It would be impossible not to have known at least one.

I completely believe that millions more men would rape children if they could be assured of no punishment. It reminds me of those depressing surveys where the vast majority of men admitted they would rape women if they knew they would not be punished.

financialcareerstuff · 05/08/2024 10:32

I would love to know how generational the denial of inequality is.

When I was young, I experienced patriarchy mostly second hand, or lacking the experience to know that's what it was. Eg I saw my mum running around after my dad and everybody being careful of his feelings.... but that was just the dynamic between mum and dad, and him being a more explosive character, right? I didn't know there were millions of other relationships out there just like that, along sex lines.

In school, girls often excel more academically, so there's not the consistent experience of being bottom of the heap.

I think a lot of the personal impact of patriarchy dawns on you gradually. When you notice you are not being promoted as fast, or paid as much, or your bright ideas are seen as aggressive, and you start learning that you shouldn't express confidence. When you have a partner move in with you, and after a few years of love-laced great feelings, like a boiled frog you realize after a few more years, your life is becoming just like your mum's.... and you start to talk to other friends, who are discovering the same..... when you have a child, and suddenly start seeing the conditioning you experienced but from the outside, towards someone you love....the sexiest toys, the stories you find yourself reading your daughter, in which the female characters are evil, or make stupid mistakes, fall asleep for most of the plot, and wait to be rescued..... when you have to start worrying about your daughters going out and not getting assaulted or raped..... and then when the guy you have, who you've still been telling yourself is one of the relatively good ones, fucks off with a 23 year old, after you've been labouring for the family for 16 years,...,, when you find yourself on online dating and see that most men your age set their age search for a decade younger than they are...... then, you start experiencing perimenopause, a huge medical issue for billions of women, that is chronically underserved, which your mum never told you about, because she'd been too exhausted to register, never mind care about her own physical health or emotional wellbeing.....

By then, I think most women believe in the patriarchy..... but, you can understand that before that, you just don't want to.... who would want to- at 17, or even 27, accept that you are a second class citizen, likely to be attacked or killed due to your sex, with less chance of achieving what you want in life, and facing resentment and backlash if you DO manage to achieve it..... and as mothers, is that really what we want to tell our daughters? Perhaps we do try to warn them- but we also want to try to programme them with something different - tell them they can achieve anything they set their mind to, that they can have autonomy over their bodies, that they are empowered to lead happy lives.

Of course it takes a long time to accept! And some prefer never to.... or to lighten the message with a belief that we can, through our own choices, rise above.....

Ramblingnamechanger · 05/08/2024 11:50

Just read the relationship threads here on MN.

Superlambaanana · 05/08/2024 15:27

@financialcareerstuff great response. You are so right. Enjoyed reading that, despite the message being rather depressing!

OP posts:
CoddiwomplingThroughLife · 05/08/2024 15:56

I have been married a long time. This weekend has been awful. He said something hurtful to me. When I pulled him up on it, he has turned it all round on me. Apparently he only said it because I am a man hater, I talk about newspaper articles reporting violent men and read the feminist board on here. I am therefore being hurtful to the two men in the household.

I, also, don't initiate sex enough and he feels unloved and I obviously don't care about him.

I don't know what to do. I am feeling very fragile as my Mum is on end of life care. I have anxiety through the roof at the moment.

Sorry, just needed to vent but didn't feel ready to start my own thread on the relationship board.

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