Gender Neutral Toilets

[BaffledPanda]

I have arrived at work this morning to discover that one of my work colleagues has decided to change all the loos to gender neutral loos.

I don't want this to be a debate about whether people can change sex. But I would like some ideas on how I can word an email to say that I don't agree with this decision.

To give a bit more context, I work in a building that is used by the public and the toilets that are being changed are the ones that the public use.

I've name changed so I can't be linked to my work. MN can verify that I've been around for yonks.

And there's never an explanation as to why it's OK for a particular demographic to by pass safguarding protocols.

You can talk about debates and discussions etc all you like but ultimately there is no solution to this that doesn't mean that you either tell male people no , or you abolish safguarding completely.

If someone's too fragile to cope with being reminded they are male then the answer is surely to seek help. Not expect anyone and everyone else to pretend along side them.

I dont particularly like being 43 and fat but I never expected anyone else to pretend I was 30 and remove sizing lables from my clothes. I decided to do something about it instead amd joined a gym.

And if you arent prepared to seek help for your inability to accept reality then you you kinda have to eventually stop whinging about it.

I have written a list twice how mixed sex toilets, changing rooms and sporting categories negatively affect women and girls. I have given real life examples, you ignored the issues and responded about needs of trans women.

We see you, we see what you care about and it’s not kind.

Public service announcement:

Transwomen commit sexual crimes at the same rate as men because they are men

Let's also talk about what policy makers call the "urinary leash." That is, the very real limitations that women experience in participating in public life, if there is no adequate toilet provision. I can remember the times (30/40 years ago) when "We don't have Ladies' facilities" was seen as sufficient reason for not employing women in many areas of working life.

And way back in the 19th century, the lack of single-sex provision for women in public literally kept women at home. There were important feminist campaigns for single-sex, safe, dignified lavatories for women. We still have to do this - think of the queues women experience at large mass gatherings of people (eg theatres).

And the larger problem with "gender neutral" lavatories - which should more accurately be labelled MIXED SEX - and with self-id generally is that we used to have strong sanctions on ANY man entering women's single-sex spaces. This helped to minimise sexual crimes such as voyeurism etc. We are seeing thse increase again.

Oh well, it's progress when a group of men takes away women's spaces and language, isn't it? So much on the right side of history.

Anecdote is not the singular of data.

Transwomen commit sexual crimes at the same rate as men. Loads of ONS data to support that. In fact, the number of sexual crimes committed by transwomen is pretty horrifying, given how small a proportion of the general population they constitute.

Tell that to:
Maya Forstater
Kathleen Stock
Jo Phoenix
Sibyl Ruth
Denise Fahaney
Rosie Kay
Graham Linehan

Just for starters, off the top of my head, the women & men I know who have lost jobs for simply saying that there are two sexes, and that lesbians don't have penises, or that lesbians & gay men are same-sex attracted.

And for the other side, m'Lud, let's think about Nancy Kelley's (outgoing CEO of Stonewall) statement that lesbians who would not consider transwomen in their dating pool are "sexual racists."

In a world where lesbians are still subject to "corrective rape" as a cure for their homosexuality, this is an atrocious thing for anyone to say, let alone someone who's served as head of Stonewall, a charity set up by and for lesbians and gay men.

But you seem quite happy to demonise 51% of the population ....

Transwomen commit sexual crimes at the same rate as men. Loads of ONS data to support that.

And I should add that around 98% of sexual crimes are committed by men. And around 80% of their victims are women and girls ...

Surely they can use a unisex toilet? I certainly don’t want a beardy bloke in a dress coming in to the loo when I’m in there. Grim. Sick of this pandering nonsense.

Hate crimes? Come off it.
It’s women who are at risk of hate crimes, not some confused bloke who decides he’s a woman.

The thing about hate crimes is there doesn't have to even be a victim. If someone hears me talking to someone with a perceived protected characteristic and takes offence they could report me. Even if the alleged victim wasn't bothered.

It's very telling sex is not a protected characteristic when it comes to hate crime criteria. Or I could call the police every time I'm.called a bitch or slag or whatever at work . Police would have no time for much else.

Being told no is not a hate crime.

I am not demonising Trans people.

I am discussing women's rights.

Don't put words in my mouth.

The debate around safety and fairness concerns two groups.

One group has lost, and continues to lose many of their rights. The other group is taking said rights away and continues to advocate for taking more.

Sterotyping people is indeed discriminatory and potentially harmful.

But at this point which group is doing the sterotying and discrimination?

The group that is losing their rights or the group that is taking those rights away?

The group that get arrested, fired, doxed, shut out of debate public and cyber, or the group that has them arrested, fired, doxed and kicked out of debates, public and cyber?

This means that institutions like police, political systems, all media, educaltion, and so on work in favour of one of those two groups. I would posit that the group not favoured by the institutions of State are, rationally, the most vunerable.

And it shuts down the very important debates we should be having to address the legitimate concerns raised around safety and fairness.

Never was a truer word said. Women and girls have had and are having a terrible time of it.

Were these well designed?

Mixed Toilets create more danger to women and girls than single sex no matter how they are designed.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/06/28/essex-schoolgirls-sexually-assaulted-gender-neutral-toilets/

It's worse than that - trans women are far more likely to be in prison for sexual crimes than other men. Ministry of Justice stats....

I am a woman, an adult human female. Only people like me are women. Not men who would like to be women. Calling me cis implies that these men are women, and are in my sex category just because they say so. But it's not fact as no one can change sex, it's a delusion. I don't believe in gender ideology and therefore I'm offended by being called cis.

Funny how #nodebate is still going strong when they are losing the debate...

I think you're the one trying to shut down debate by accusing us of discrimination and harm!

The thought of going into a smelly men's loo makes me gag. Also I don't want to see anyone urinating so walking through the potential of that is horrific! 😬

If a bloke feels he is trans and wears women's clothing, they can come in the ladies loos

Blokes dont need to come in, making women and girls feel uncomfortable and piss all over the floor and seat

Simple

I'm not sure I quite understand your reasoning. First of all a bloke who 'feels he is trans and wears women's clothing' is still a bloke! No way he can get round that, it's simple biology.

And the vast majority of men who wear dresses still have all their male bits so how do you think he's not going to pee all over the floor and seat?

A man in the ladies loos, particularly if he has a dress on is going to creep me out grand style, and scare me. As they say, good men stay out, so the bad men stand out. In other words, if your bloke in a dress cared anything about women he'd go to the men's toilets, as they're happy for him to be there.

Don't prioritise men's 'feelings' over the reality of women and girls - their safety, dignity and privacy. If you do you're a handmaiden of the cult.

Sigh..,, single use ‘unisex’ toilets do hurt people - they remove a vital safety net for people who have fits for example or other unpredictable issues since it removes the possibility of other toilet users of the same sex seeing a head or hand on the floor under the gap between door and floor.

Over the years I’ve seen other work colleagues break open a loo door on seeing an epileptic colleague on the floor. I have myself assisted several women vomiting with morning sickness, helped mop up blood from a menopausal flood and assisted and called an ambulance for another colleague having a miscarriage. These women would have been alone, possibly unconscious, certainly very vulnerable alone in a self contained cubicle or worse, in a mixed sex facility. It’s biology and statistics on safety - very simple.

And these single person loos are a nightmare in schools. My head teacher pal also requests that epileptic and other children with certain medical conditions use the girls or boys facilities just in case they become unwell in the hope that they’ll be spotted.

Thank you for that, it's an aspect of this whole debacle that I'd never considered. My argument against toilets with floor to ceiling walls and doors is that they're a pervert's dream. They can bundle a woman or girl in there and do anything they like and probably no one would know.

And men continue making the place smell and pee on the seats and floor....

Trans isn't a disability . As a disabled person, please don't allow this.