Gender Neutral Toilets

[BaffledPanda]

I have arrived at work this morning to discover that one of my work colleagues has decided to change all the loos to gender neutral loos.

I don't want this to be a debate about whether people can change sex. But I would like some ideas on how I can word an email to say that I don't agree with this decision.

To give a bit more context, I work in a building that is used by the public and the toilets that are being changed are the ones that the public use.

I've name changed so I can't be linked to my work. MN can verify that I've been around for yonks.

There is a toilet expert on mumsnet (writes building regs etc)so hopefully she'll spot this thread and advise.
I found this but think there's final agreed regs now
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/toilet-provision-in-buildings-other-than-dwellings-technical-consultation/annex-e-draft-approved-document-t-toilets

Stick a sign up saying our toilets are gender neutral however this one has urinals, this one does not.
Most people will choose the correct toilet

It makes a big difference what the building is and who the public are who have access.

A cafe with two loos can’t be treated the same way as an international airport.

You have correctly guessed that it is a cafe. There are 3 loos, an accessible, ladies and a gents. They are now all designated as gender neutral.

That is actually sensible in that case. What is the point in me queuing while my tea goes cold when there is a perfectly usable other toilet.

For clarity @BaffledPanda are they I discuss use, so the ladies toilet is a single room with the toilet, sink, hand drying facilities and a floor to ceiling lockable door.

Or is the ladies toilet a room with more than 1 sink, more than 1 cubicle and so on.

Same for the men's toilet - single room with 1 of everything in it and lockable, or multiple of everything with cubicles and people standing side by side at sinks.

The ladies is floor to ceiling cubicles but with the sinks separate.
The men's is sinks opposite a large urinal, you have to walk past these to get to the toilet cubicle which a floor to ceiling door.

Presumably the cafe is designated "adults only"? As inviting girls to walk past men with their dicks out at a urinal could open up men to claims of indecent exposure ? And to a child?

Agree with others - ask to see the Equality Impact assessment and ask specifically whether safeguarding children was addressed?

Does the men's lock before the urinal? Or is it just the cubicle within the men's that locks?

Just the cubicle that locks, but you have to walk through the urinal and sinks get to the cubicle.

Is the assessment something that legally has to be done? I want to make sure I go in with the correct information. I've decided to ask to speak to someone rather than sending an email but want to make sure I have the facts.

Maybe just a lock ion the external door is required. Speak to the owner/manager to get one installed. As pp said nobody wants young girls walking in on a man peeing.
But nothing wrong with using either if a lock is installed.

Will be interesting to see if there are any customer complaints. I would not visit that cafe again if there was the option to have separate toilets for men and women but they chose not to use it.

Why should the possible discomfort of this small number outweigh women’s actual needs?

Watch your customer numbers drop then. And to be honest that is probably what your managers / higher ups take notice.

Your workplace is now actively discrimination against women who need a single space, 1 in 4 have been sexually assaulted / raped.

Women who are not allowed to undress in front of men or in a space that men use eg Muslim, some Christians, Orthodox jews.

Do children use the toilets?

OP link to the law. This only applies to the employees but that means it has to be followed.

www.hse.gov.uk/simple-health-safety/workplace-facilities/health-safety.htm

Properly designed gender neutral toilets are not an issue unless you make it an issue. Personally I would prefer not to use a loo with urinals, but in a small venue like a cafe I’d rather have the choice of 2 or 3 gender neutral cubicles than to have to wait outside the ladies while the other loo with a picture of a man on the door is empty. So long as they are clean and have a sanitary bin what’s the problem?

But to answer your question, everyone deserves dignity and safety. There is no need to marginalise a vulnerable group of people even more. And hate crimes against transgender people are on the increase:

www.statista.com/statistics/624011/transgender-hate-crimes-in-england-and-wales-by-offence-type/

The problems are multiple as you well know.

Often they are not clean. In fact I've never seen a clean gender neutral toilet. They are always covered in pee and stink.

The 'common' area is away from the public gaze if the cubicles are housed in a separate room which many have to be in old buildings, making women feel more vulnerable because they are more vulnerable in that situation.
Especially for Muslim women it would be highly inappropriate for them to be in a secluded bathroom area with men about.
Many women simply wouldn't feel comfortable in that situation and that is reason enough not to share with men. Plus obviously the ease of illicit recording of women is very real. If men can spend time in unisex facilities setting recording equipment up because no one can question why they are there, it again makes women more vulnerable.

I don't know why you are asking what women should to to make transwomen more comfortable. It's not women's job to find a solution.

Plus and again as you know there is a very very easy solution, a third unisex bathroom alongside single sex facilities. But TRAs never want that. Their misogynistic ideals involve trampling all over women.

I don't know why you are posting a link (source info cant be seen without registering anyway) to attacks on trans people). Again it is not for women to give up their hard won rights to appease other groups or make them safer. Women have their own safety issues.

Have you posted elsewhere or spoken in real life about the number of women dying at the hands of their partners or ex partners? If not. Why not? You expect women to solve the trans problem. Why aren't you out solving the rape and violence epidemic against women?

You are marginalising women by expecting them to put themselves at risk. You are expecting women to give things up for men and to centre men.

You are the problem because you won't listen to what women say about their needs and wants.

Women are human, not props for men.

You are making a lot of assertions and assumptions about me and about other people, @Scammersarescum . Especially about transgender people, most of whom just want to live their lives like you or I do.

I have worked in many places with gender neutral toilets. They are fine. No issue’s whatsoever. I have also worked in places where transgender women used the ladies toilet, with the full support of the women.

I believe everyone has the right to be safe, and that we have a shared responsibility to keep everyone safe.

People of all sexes and genders can be a victim or perpetrator of sexual violence. However, most violence against women is perpetrated in the home and by people known to the victim. Nothing to do with gender neutral toilets.

We have been through this with my eldest secondary school.

They managed to come up with a practical solution. Each floor has a set of sex specific toilets each contain an accessible cubicle inside and then it has four toilets separately on each floor. Two are disabled one is state of the art with hoist, shower and other equipment, sorry can't remember exactly what else.

And then the remaining two on each floor are stand alone toilets open to everyone. There is an outer door into a sink area then a separate floor to ceiling door cubicle.

Honestly I was really proud of the teens coming up with practical solutions without drama, engaging with representatives. Sometimes I do have a lot of hope for the future.

This happened in a cafe my friend and I used to visit. It was originally Mens Womens and Disabled.

They changed nothing but the labels on the door of the women’s and disabled to state these were now gender neutral,which we declined to use.

The designated space for men was protected, the designated space for women was discarded.

My money is now spent elsewhere.

That's a cracking post Scammers - well worth repeating.
Why some people think that women's rights to privacy from men in showers, changing rooms, toilets, hospital wards etc matters so little defies belief.
Still, as recent publicity has shown, politicians are finally being held to account when they try to undermine society's long standing social contract. We will not stand by while girls and women are forced into being support humans and pandering to unhappy men by allowing them access when we're undressing and vulnerable.

We are talking about gender neutral toilets in a cafe, not shared showers. Get a grip.

Same principle. Young girls being expected to walk past urinals with men with their dicks out in the interests of "inclusion" and ensuring that men don't get sad.

We've single sex facilities for good reasons and it's not up to you to give away the rights of other women and girls who are content with the social contract that recognises the risk some men pose to women.

A well designed gender neutral toilet wouldn’t present that scenario, as well you know.

We have had gender neutral loos since forever - in our homes, on trains, on airplanes, disabled loos etc etc.

Don't have to walk past strangers with their their dicks out in my home. Don't be disingenuous.