Gender Neutral Toilets

[BaffledPanda]

I have arrived at work this morning to discover that one of my work colleagues has decided to change all the loos to gender neutral loos.

I don't want this to be a debate about whether people can change sex. But I would like some ideas on how I can word an email to say that I don't agree with this decision.

To give a bit more context, I work in a building that is used by the public and the toilets that are being changed are the ones that the public use.

I've name changed so I can't be linked to my work. MN can verify that I've been around for yonks.

have worked in many places with gender neutral toilets. They are fine. No issue’s whatsoever. I have also worked in places where transgender women used the ladies toilet, with the full support of the women.

I have yet to come across a gender neutral toilet that is even half way decent. They are grim, unclean, and make both men and women uncomfortable as far as I can see.

Why be so dismissive of violence against women? Why support men being women while being dismissive of women?

We have always had gender neutral toilets at my work. No urinals though.
What is the problem?

We have a grip.

We don't want it.

You grip that?

But these aren’t “fully cubicled.”

And just because you’re fine with them, doesn’t mean other women should be.

Perhaps you didn’t read the post that told us that one of these so-called “gender neutral” lavatories has urinals.

Or the posts describing the state of men’s lavatories

Or the posts listing the sexual assaults committed against women in “gender neutral” facilities.

And please, people, let’s be accurate in our language - these are “mixed sex” lavatories.

Off topic but I don’t like the full length lockable toilets. I alway worry my 9 year old will get herself locked in.

No practical help I’m afraid from me OP but well done for taking it on and doing something about it.

That's great, however the deliberate fudging of language has made a proper discussion about this a bit tricky, I feel.

When I see 'Gender Neutral' I think of old style cubicles with stalls. Gaps between stall panels at the bottom (I've passed loo paper to an occupant in the adjacent stall before now) and above. Sinks in an open area where people waiting congregate.

When I see 'Unisex' I think of facilities int he style of accessible toilets, or those on planes and trains - single fully enclosed unit with a hand wash basin and sanitary disposal bin.

What you are describing seems to be a combination of the two - a fully enclosed cubicle with a toilet but shared hand wash area? It's great that you are happy with that set up, but many women aren't. And tbh, the very fact that a man deliberately goes into a space that he knows is set aside for women makes him a wrongun to me, however nice of a friend he is to someone else.

It is a problem for some women, please be kind to these women.

For example:

1. women whose religion means they cannot share toilet facitlies.
2. women who have been victims of sexual abuse who feel uncomfortable going into enclosed rooms with no camera where they could end up alone with another male, how ever they identity.
3. Girls in schools who are reporting they feel uncomfortable going into mixed sex toilets and are skipping school to avoid embarrassment of changing sanitary protection (and the obvious noises of unwrapping etc.) whilst boys are in the next cubicle are making fun.
4. Girls are holding on and getting urinary infections to avoid going to mix sex toilets at school. (This is widely documented)
5. Boys smashing in doors whilst girls are in the cubicles and causing actual bodily harm (This has been documented)
6. A school in Kent recently reported 4 sexual assault in mixed sex toilets.
7. The recent legal case where "nurses starting their shift in tears because a man is changing in the women's changing room and is staring at their breasts as he speaks to them, and walking around in tight, little underpants". They have the whole hospitals support on this matter but the management told them to they should go to training to be more inclusive.

But this could happen anyway, I hear you say, bad men can get access to single sex spaces anyway. Well, that is true but it is more difficult and all the statistics show that sexual assaults and voyerism are much more likely in mixed sex settings.

Be kind only seems to be one way, just because you don't worry about mixed sex toilets doesn't mean you support the movement taking away safety and dignity for other women.

I also support safety for people who don’t feel comfortable in single sex toilets, which many trans people don’t.

I am in favour of taking a critical view of what is currently provided and finding a solution that works for all vulnerable groups. I am not an extremist - I certainly don’t think urinals should be placed where women or girls are seeking toilet facilities.

In larger venues one might expect a wider choice of options. Where facilities are limited (e.g., on a train) the choice will be limited, but no one should be excluded.

But women's and girls safety is already being eroded, this thread alone is proof.
The stats show it is more dangerous for women and girls in mixed sex toilets (however they are configured).
If, as you say, trans people don't feel safe in single sex toilets then a solution should be found for them that doesn't increase the risks for biological women.

Biological men are the danger to women and girls however they present and so single sex provision that already exists should not be dismantled.
The trans community should find a solution and I'm sure the majority of women would be right behind it if it didn't impeded on safety, dignity and comfort of many women and girls.

Why should the trans community be responsible for finding a solution to this?

Do you think disabled people should be ignored unless they come up with a solution for the problems they face in society? Or people who experience racism? Or older people? Or any other minoritised group?

I’m in favour of looking at the issue as a whole.

@Darker why should women be responsible for finding a solution, or making accomodations to support a solution? Why not men?

I doubt anyone would be arrested for indecent exposure for using the urinals in a toilet

Why not all of us?

I happen to feel very strongly that violence against women is a problem that men need to own and take steps to resolve.

And in the same vein, that cis-men and cis-women should take responsibility for addressing transphobic violence and discrimination against transgender people.

The trans community are best placed to understand their own needs and to have the capacity to fight for them. As I said, I am certain women would be absolutely behind them, as long as it doesn't make women going about their daily life less safe.

Women have campaigned tirelessly for their rights to public toilets, please read up on the urinary leash when there were NO public toilets for women so they could only go so far as their bladder could let them, thus keeping them home.
The first public toilets for women were not around until around the first world war.

And here we are still campaigning for the right to dignity and safety with single sex toilet provision, the right to compete in fair and safe sport with other biological females. etc.

Women should not be campaigning for this to be eroded.

@darker when men start making accommodations to meet the needs of transpeople I might be more inclined to agree with you. As it stands, only women are being expected to give up safe spaces to make room for transpeople and in doing so are becoming more vulnerable. I don't see men being accused of transphobia in large numbers and being told that transmen are men.

There is a hell of a lot of whataboutery in this thread.

Are you saying these things aren't happening because that would be a lie.

1. women whose religion means they cannot share toilet facitlies.
2. women who have been victims of sexual abuse who feel uncomfortable going into enclosed rooms with no camera where they could end up alone with another male, how ever they identity.
3. Girls in schools who are reporting they feel uncomfortable going into mixed sex toilets and are skipping school to avoid embarrassment of changing sanitary protection (and the obvious noises of unwrapping etc.) whilst boys are in the next cubicle are making fun.
4. Girls are holding on and getting urinary infections to avoid going to mix sex toilets at school. (This is widely documented)
5. Boys smashing in doors whilst girls are in the cubicles and causing actual bodily harm (This has been documented)
6. A school in Kent recently reported 4 sexual assault in mixed sex toilets.
7. The recent legal case where "nurses starting their shift in tears because a man is changing in the women's changing room and is staring at their breasts as he speaks to them, and walking around in tight, little underpants". They have the whole hospitals support on this matter but the management told them to they should go to training to be more inclusive.

And until men do take steps to resolve violence against women and girls we need to retain same sex space, the spaces set up to keep biological males out in order to give women and girls dignity and privacy from biological males. This includes sporting categories.

@Darker please don’t use the term ‘cis’ when talking about women. We are not a subset of our sex. The word “woman” is sufficient.

Says the poster who argued earlier in the thread that as toilets in our homes are "gender neutral" women and girls should be happy to share toilets etc with unknown men 😂😂

It is interesting that you only acknowledge the safety issue for women and girls and immediately include Trans women in this.

You ignore all the other equally important reasons.

There is an obvious first step of a solution - get rid of self ID.

It's worth remembering that no women anywhere in the world ever campaigned for men to share toilets, showers, changing rooms, hospital wards, women's sports etc.

This is a male dominated and led campaign where women were told that we would now be sharing spaces where women undress / are vulnerable with unknown men. That the social contract based on respecting differences and women's vulnerabilities when faced with certain men was ended - by men.
That men who don't respect women's rights to privacy and dignity (the biggest red flag going) would be given the public space to declare a war on women who objected to these enforced changes.

No is a complete sentence. Trans lobby groups can use their immense wealth, their massive power that has enabled them to upturn facts, science reality and make once respected politicians beclown themselves by denying that there are two sexes. Women really aren't going to roll over for this entitled, overbearing group trying to remove women's fundamental rights to safety.

There is a clear first solution that Tran people need to advocate for and that is remove self id.

Self id is not fot for purpose and gives ALL transpeople a very bad name. We see that by the sex offenders who have jumped onto self id as a means to gain access.

Trans people need to campaign against that in a "not in our name" type thing.

Disabled people did come up with the solutions for the problems they faced.

Women came up with solutions for the problems they faced.

Black people came up with solutions for the problems they faced.

Workers came up with solutions for the problems they faced.

And so on.