Gender Neutral Toilets

[BaffledPanda]

I have arrived at work this morning to discover that one of my work colleagues has decided to change all the loos to gender neutral loos.

I don't want this to be a debate about whether people can change sex. But I would like some ideas on how I can word an email to say that I don't agree with this decision.

To give a bit more context, I work in a building that is used by the public and the toilets that are being changed are the ones that the public use.

I've name changed so I can't be linked to my work. MN can verify that I've been around for yonks.

I know some sweet Trans people and some not so sweet. Like normal society.

Taking rights AWAY is harming.

Providing well designed gender neutral toilets doesn’t take women’s rights away. (Please don’t @ me with examples that are clearly not well thought out - I’ve been very clear on this from the start).

Using language such as ‘cis’ doesn’t take anyone’s rights away.

Calling a transwoman a man doesn't take his rights away.

Using language like 'cis' implies that everyone is a believer in gender identity ideology, which they are not.

Just because a man self IDs as a woman doesn’t give them the right to use the women’s toilets. They are legally still a man and should use the men’s toilets. This ‘gender ideology’ stuff is very new, no one had a problem until recently! Maybe men should think about this before choosing to express their fetish in public.

Removing women's single sex toilets, showers, hospital wards, prison cells and sports does take women's rights away. Renaming women as " Cis" is unnecessary. The word woman is taken. In use by women.
Men who think they're women already have a word - transwomen. If they don't like it then they are welcome to think of another word. What they can't do is appropriate women's language, women's spaces, women's sports for themselves.

The powerful trans lobby groups have lots of power, influence and money. It shouldn't be beyond their intellectual capabilities to come up with language and resources that aren't removed from women. Try a little bit of respect for the sex they think they are.

Using language to refine 50% of the population without their consent is pretty high handed. If language is so unimportant why all the hullabaloo re trans women are women, he is she, dead naming etc.

Seems that « it doesn’t take away rights » only flows in one direction.

I agree that well designed gender neutral toilets are a good thing as well as Women Only that remain exclusively for women and not male identifying women.

*redefine

Do the words heterosexual or straight redefine people who are in the majority in being attracted to people of the opposite sex?

I also work in a large building with gender neutral toilets. I have to say that they are clean and everyone is respectful of each other.

I don't understand the point you are trying to make here?

I assume that this is a building for use by employees only? In which case I would expect it to be clean and people to be respectful of each other as if they aren't personally known and/or behave inappropriately there is always HR to fall back on. Are these mixed sex, then? Or single enclosed units?

I used to travel a lot in my job and in 'emergencies' when I had to use a single unisex loo in a petrol station, they invariably smelt strongly of urine and usually had skid marks in. Not pleasant to use at all.

'The powerful trans lobby groups have lots of power, influence and money'

The powerful trans lobby groups also have the ability to immediately and effectively shut down all logical thought by calling any challengers to their belief system TERFS. No evidence required to prove that someone is transphobic, but, once thrown, the mud sticks and it justifies horrendous bullying against women who are just trying to stand true to the facts of biological sex. Men turning women against themselves to justify men appropriating women's hard fought rights. They must be standing back congratulating each other.

Fear mongering.

How so?

People (women) have lost their jobs.

People (women) have been arrested.

Businesses have been boycotted.

People (women) have been doxed

People (women) have been threatened with murder and rape.

People (women and children) have been attacked in bathrooms.

People (Women) have been filmed in bathrooms.

People (women) have lost sports scholarships, team placements.

People (women ) have lost the right to single sex facilities in - sport, health care, changing facilities, toilets,

I could go on and on and on.

How is that fear mongering?

Ok - demonising transgender people.

It’s extremely harmful.

Just stop.

Seems to be ok fir trans people to demonise the fraudulent men who would abuse them either in the mens or by claiming to be women and follow them into the ladies. Why can they be afraid of men but women who don't want males in their spaces are demonising trans people/bigot/hysterical etc

Stereotyping people is discriminatory and potentially extremely harmful to vulnerable people.

And it shuts down the very important debates we should be having to address the legitimate concerns raised around safety and fairness.

Please tell me what is safe and fair about allowing males with their thousands if genetic differences that make the bigger faster stronger etc into spaces and positions for women.

We now have mens spaces/sports and mixed spaces/sports.

How is that remotely fair.

Humans come in two sexes, male and female (people with DSDs are still male or female, there is no third sex)

Certain facilities are separated by sex for the privacy and dignity of those using them.

Males should not be in the female only spaces. Would you class that as discrimination?

Excuse me? You make a lot of assumptions about what I think and are expecting me to defend positions which clearly need more thought.

This debate style is harmful and doesn’t help anyone, including women.

Translation- I have no answer.

Trans people are not vulnerable beyond their self proclaimed victim status they desperately try to milk whenever they are told no. The same no that anyone else would get in the same circumstances.

Boundaries are not bigotry. Taking safe guarding as a personal attack is the height of entitlement and narcissism.

I'm not being accused of anything by being told no I can't go into the mens. Most people accept that. Anyone who thinks they are special enough to override that are probably the people who should be kept out.

We are not going to get anywhere at this level of debate and it’s not at all interesting or constructive. Bye.

Safeguarding should never be a debate. It's for everyone . All the time. No excuses.

It seems that this excellent post generated a flounce? Amazing what hearing the word "no" does to those insisting that women have no right to say no to men determined to erode women and girls right to boundaries 🤔

I don't see any 'demonisation' of transmen on this thread, or of transpeople more generally. Perhaps an argument might be made that males are being demonised, though I'd argue that arguments are based on the fact that that group are overwhelmingly responsible for violence against women and children which is why we have safeguarding rules ( and no mother said to her child ever 'if you're lost, look for a single man' instead of another mum).

It's a statistics game. A refusal to see the real risk that men pose and to acknowledge the historic and well founded division of the sexes for their privacy and dignity is rooted in denial and misogyny.

I do see many points referencing the different biological needs of males and females. I see points referencing or based on the need to safeguard the safety, privacy and dignity of females in a world where they are overwhelmingly at risk from aberrant male behaviour. This is not transphobic and saying it is shows a clear prioritisation of male desires over and above everything else and even if you don't share these concerns it is profoundly ignorant to discount the fears born of the experiences of many females.