I went to the Tavistock as a young person - AMA

[MAW1993]

I attended the Tavistock from 2008 to 2011, beginning when I was about 15. I made this post because I saw the many questions people asked on a previous AMA. Unfortunately, the OP was uncomfortable answering some of them, and I felt there may be a need for an AMA with someone who can be more open.

I don't think using rhetoric like "the terf movement" is helpful.

Apologies, the last thing I want to do is change the time of this helpful thread. What is people’s preferred term? I’ll ask MN to amend it.

The tone. Ffs.

I’ve reported my own post and asked for it to be amended. I’ve seen people use TERF to describe themselves so didn’t realise it would be problematic.

Thank you @WaitingForMojo. I think gender critical is a little more neutral.

Whilst some women do use the word "terf" to refer to themselves, it is also clearly used as a violent slur.

I also don't think it's accurate because I'm sure most of us would agree that there are aspects of feminism which clearly include trans men and non binary people.

Most women who believe single sex spaces and child safeguarding are important probably don't consider themselves to be part of any kind of movement.

@MAW1993I accidentally tagged you in this post and can't seem to untag you!

Hi guys thank you for the continued engagement. An essay is monopolising my time at the moment, but I do value the discussion here and will be back to answer the new questions properly tomorrow or the day after.

I don’t really like to talk about any of it in a public way because you just get hated on by all sides. Like OP, I have spent most of my life answering the same questions and having people try and catch me out or prove I am just mentally ill, or a pervert or deluded etc. It’s really tiring and I just want to be treated like anybody else.

However people can normally tell I am a trans woman so I still get a lot of questioning and hostility in my day to day life. That just makes me even less keen to put my head above the parapet and attract even more.

Also there have been some very hurtful and cruel comments from anti-trans groups and I feel like both sides just use us as pawns and cherry pick our experiences to try and push their own views. So I am reluctant to express my criticism as it feels like it could just be misquoted or removed from context by people trying to restrict our options.

I know there are some small movements of trans people who share these views and like OP said they get hated on a lot by the mainstream groups and get called truscum. I think that there are a lot more people who feel this way but don’t say anything though. I normally find if you say the odd little thing people suddenly realise you are someone who will not attack them and will open up about how they really feel.

Thank you so much for taking the time to share your story and answer all these questions @MAW1993

To me it's strange that the "truscum" and "gender ideology-based self ID" difference in thinking aren't more widely known about. (Sorry, it sounds like a horrible term that I've never quite gotten my head around the trans online spaces using).To me it's the main thing I've been questioning for years - I've generally always been sympathetic to the idea of wanting to be the opposite sex but couldn't fathom why no-one was making noise about this "new" (as it was) definition of trans as "always having been a woman/man because being a woman/man is a feeling or identity". Particularly when it involved slurs against people I thought of as actually trans.

It always seemed contradictory to me that bodies suddenly became irrelevant to being trans (the logic gets very mangled here which is why I've never been able to follow it) and no-one seemed to say "hang on - what?"

@MAW1993 i want to chime in and say a huge thankyou to you for such an insightful and balanced AMA.

I agree with pretty much all of the views you have expressed throughout the thread and I have learnt a lot from you and have lots to think and read about. I think it’s very important that it is ‘out there’ that there are trans people who see the ways in which the current ideology is making vulnerable populations even more vulnerable. I’m very sorry that it is/has been difficult for you to connect with people who are undergoing similar experiences due to the toxicity that has emerged through the last few years. I’m also so incredibly sorry to hear about the assault you suffered. I’m very glad that man is in prison.

I have two questions - although one I’m pretty sure I know the answer to! Let’s get that one out the way - how do you feel about transwomen participating in women’s sport?

And secondly regarding the closure of the Tavistock - it was my impression that it was pretty much untenable to keep it open, because of the amount of clinicians who worked there who ended up having serious concerns and of course the Cass review highlighting the need for more research into the treatments being prescribed. What would you have changed to keep it open, if you were running it?

God this is awful I'm so very sorry. What a hideous individual. I'm glad you're in a much better place now, but how utterly horrific. I hope this puts it into context for others why you are so committed to remaining stealth (at least at this time). You confided in someone once and as this was the outcome it is completely understandable why you wouldn't be prepared to do so again if it wasn't an absolute necessity. I can tell you are grappling with the points around patient dignity Vs your own rights to privacy and safety. I hope you are able to find an accommodation for both those things; and that you continue to recover and heal from this terrible experience <3

I spent the early hours reading through this thread (thank you thunderstorm); what a journey!

I hope you found the process cathartic and wish you a successful career, many happy friendships and the loving partner that you desire.

I would urge you to engage with any research seeking to understand the long-term implications of your treatment pathway and medications. It could make such a difference to those behind you.

Just a couple of questions from me: Do you get monitored for bone density now your oestrogen levels are low?

Will there be a time when you'll have to come off testosterone?

What prompted you to get onto to Mumsnet to do an "AMA" now? Has it helped you, do you think?

It has been an eye-opener to hear your story instead of all the "men in dresses", who mostly seem to have a very different pathway and motivations.

Your story deserves to be in print, by the way!

Just a couple of questions from me: Do you get monitored for bone density now your oestrogen levels are low?

Doesn't the testosterone compensate for this?

www.hysto.net/osteoporosis-hysterectomy-transmen.htm#

This is why it is so important to monitor the health of these trans men and women. It could be that longer term studies disprove this, but we won't know unless we do the research.

No, it doesn't.

@2mummies1baby OK thanks. That sound quite emphatic, although the link posted by @Madcats suggests there is some role for testosterone in maintaining a healthy bone density. Endocrinology seems like a really fascinating subject but my knowledge barely scratches the surface. I do like the observation that "we are all chemical creatures'.

Thank you so much.

I think they are very much of the type of group who have a specific position and then cherry pick evidence to support that. Any study that confirms their viewpoint is quoted, even ones that have been consistently debunked. Studies that don't support their viewpoint are either ignored or they lie about their findings.

For example, this is how they summarise one of the twin studies that I mentioned before:
This lack of a durable biological underpinning of a transgender identity is demonstrated best by studies involving identical twins, which show that only 28% of the twin pairs will have both twins developing a trans identity, despite having identical genes.

They fail to mention that those studies showed that the degree of concordance in identical twins was significantly higher than in non-identical twins. The studies have some pretty significant limitations, such as very small sample sizes, and one which recruited participants from an online forum... hardly rigorous or safe from bias. It is absolutely valid to question the strength of that evidence.

What is not valid, however, is to use them to bolster the claim that there is no genetic component. Most conditions occur as a result of a complex interaction between multiple genes, the environment, social factors etc. For example, genetics are known to be a significant factor in the development of type 1 diabetes. However, it is a multifactorial disease - several different genes have been identified and display incomplete penetrance, and environmental factors (e.g. coxsackievirus infection) also appear to be important. As such, when you look at twin studies the concordance rate for type 1 diabetes is never 100%. It is actually very close to the concordance rate displayed in the twin studies referenced by Genspect.

They also have outright falsehoods on their website. For example, they claim that before the introduction of the first puberty blocker trial in the UK (2011), only people aged older than '30-35' were allowed to transition. That is patently false.

Thank you for also sharing, your experience is absolutely in keeping with what I have seen.

In terms of surgery, the main aim for me is for the end result to resemble male genitalia in appearance and function, as close as is possible. I think that is more true of phalloplasty than metoidioplasty. I also know that a significant number of people who undergo metoidioplasty regret not having phalloplasty and go on to have it anyway.

I largely agree with Luna. In particular, I have seen nuanced positions selectively quoted and used by organisations that are trying actively involved in restricting our rights. I just really don't want to be associated with any of it, and don't want to interact with the unbelievably toxic groups at both extremes.

Absolutely agreed. As I have said, young people today are exposed only to the two extreme positions, and there is every chance that I would use similar language to describe my experience if that had been the case for me.

I think that both sides are deeply political, and use supposed concern for the children in question as an excuse to push ideology.

Thank you so much for your kind comment.

Thank you so much.

I think it is unfair for trans women to compete in women's sport. I also can't get my head round the hoops people will jump through to try and deny an advantage. How else can you explain mediocre male athletes suddenly becoming top rated, or podgy middle aged people being capable of competing with the fittest women in the world?

I would have liked to see the prescribing of puberty blockers based on the original criteria, as there was some evidence for that even if of low quality. But only as part of a research protocol with long term follow up in order to address the evidence gap.

Thank you so much, and yes that thunderstorm was something else!

I would like to engage with research, so I will wait to see if they contact me. I just need to know that they will follow through on the assurances they made.

I don't get bone density monitoring. My understanding is that the risk of osteoporosis is linked to inadequate levels of sex hormones. I have blood tests that monitor my hormonal levels and they are always within range so I don't have any concerns. To start with it was 3 monthly, then 6 monthly and now annually. The main adverse effects are polycythaemia, liver dysfunction and dyslipidaemia so they also check liver function, lipids and full blood count.

I have no intention of ever coming off testosterone.

I saw a post in mumsnet linked in reddit and had a look. I saw the other AMA here where the OP refused to answer some very basic questions. It seemed like a wasted opportunity so I thought I would make one myself. As to why now, I had wanted to do something similar for some time, because I think that for the most part only one narrative is pushed today, and it is harmful and inaccurate for many of us.

Thank-you @MAW1993 for this thread.

Can I just query your understanding of Genspect.

You say 'What is not valid, however, is to use them to bolster the claim that there is no genetic component'

Stella O'Malley is the founder and Executive Director and I've heard her acknowledge on more than one occasion that transgender identity does have a biological component and it is indeed multifactorial.

I also believe that she would welcome you approaching her if you see inaccuracies on the website and would correct any mistakes.

Thanks all for bearing with me, I've had a busy week.

To be honest, I think she's deeply disingenuous as is Genspect in general. Those were just two examples of many. They also claim not to want to restrict transition in adults despite openly working with a group that is trying to get it banned in 18-25 year olds. They also claim to support LGB children, and children being able to be gender non-confirming, despite linking to researcher who 'treated' sex dysphoria by making children play with 'boy' or 'girl' toys and restricting friendships with children of the opposite sex. The leaked discord comments are also deeply telling about Genspect's true agenda.

I haven't gone into more length as I have posted some quite long analyses here before, and it is very time consuming and I don't really have the energy for it at the moment. I also don't really want to engage with people who are actively trying to undermine my rights.

Thanks for your reply although I'm sad you feel that way.

When you have time I'd be interested in what you mean by 'actively trying to undermine my rights' but there is no rush for a reply.

Thanks again for already sharing so much on this thread