We are going to end up with a Conservative government AGAIN at this rate, is that ok with everyone?

[MentholLoad]

following a thread on AIBU I think about who would vote Tories again.....the main (only?) reason people are citing for voting Tories is the GC issue. Women totally abandoning social politics over a singular issue. declaring nothing else matters, if Labour can't get this right then, they won't vote for them

I can't work out if these people were Conservative voter's anyway/actually do agree that Conservative policy and practice generally, is in our best interests compared with Labour

OR they are prioritising GC issues above and at the exclusion of all else? because alot more women will have a lot more issues, if we have yet another round of Conservative Government

And they are ignoring that Labour (finally!) defined women as adult human female

AND ignoring that this whole debacle has happened under the Tories 🤷🏼‍♀️

But you think that the Labour party or, you know, for the sake of peace and parity - any other possible government, Boots - could engineer a different quality of life with the same available resources in the country.

I don't believe that. I think any fiscal optimism proposed pre-election will be withered to nothing, as jolly rhetoric hits cold reality.

Building a narrative of progress will be much more easily achieved with further social tinkering that women will be paying for - that women voted for.

You can call me an idiot and that's fine. I hope you'll allow me to return the favour down the line.

Fuck that.

I won't sit back and watch the NHS die.

The fuckers have GOT TO GO!

Fair point, well made. I guess the optimist in me just assumes that that when something is so blindingly obvious, people might take note. But perhaps they just see what they want to see and choose to ignore the rest?

Um.. you do apply this to your thinking too right?

This sense of superiority probably helped lose Brexit tbh
Yes.

Not really superiority @EasternStandard that's how it played out.

I think the Remain campaign, naively, were absolutely dependent on everyone to do 'critical thinking' and see past the strap lines of the Leave campaign, but the bus slogan won.

That's why politics is so reductive nowadays.

The Tories will leap onto this gender ideology debate, give the impression that Labour hate women, when factually, what have the Tories done to help / elevate women in the last 13 years?

From a remainder I agree .

And I've noticed Labour have flopped straight back to talking about what the Tories have done wrong, all the talk is about this- I want to hear what they would do

I’m very GC and will NRVER vote Tory. As a PP said, this shit show happened under a Tory government and they’ve had many years to put it right and they’ve chosen not to.

I’ll vote Labour because if we don’t have a change in government I dread to think what our country will be like in another 5 years.

Are you watching/reading about their Conference this week. They are setting out many of their policies.

The Brexit campaign was far more effective

It wasn’t about Remain overestimating thinking ability. They just didn’t do a great job

Labour may shoot themselves in the foot with gender stuff we’ll see but imo immigration will play a role

And I've noticed Labour have flopped straight back to talking about what the Tories have done wrong, all the talk is about this- I want to hear what they would do

I do agree but have heard the argument that they are waiting till election campaigning starts so polices don't get nicked or counted or have PR run against them for longer than necessary - we shall see then I suppose if they reasonable feasible plans.

Though I do agree with PP economics and demographics in the UK will be tough for any party in government.

Yes, I do absolutely believe that a different government with different values could produce different results. Whether I have faith in the current iteration of the Labour Party to actually deliver those results is a somewhat different question...as I said above, I am ambivalent about them at best. However, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt because I believe that they will at least try to deliver a better quality of life for the ordinary people of this country, whereas we know from experience that the Tories most definitely don't give a shit.

And FWIW, I'm not calling anyone an idiot. I am merely stating my assumption that most people voting Tory must have a reasonable idea of what they're voting for, based on their experience of the last 13 years. From that, I can only deduce that women's rights probably aren't at the top of their agendas, because despite the rhetoric, the Tories' record on women's rights is abysmal. If for whatever reason, you want to vote for more of the same in spite of that, then that is entirely your democratic right to do so...I don't think that makes you stupid, it just means that your values are very different to mine.

I just have this feeling of dread that Labour will somehow manage to fuck their campaign up regardless if they work out what a woman is..

@EasternStandard I think we agree.

The Remain campaign relied on the electorate to see past the unsubstantiated claims (lies) of the Leave campaign - you're right they didn't do a good job.

In the same way, I fear the Tories may claim to 'the party for women' - yet they've done fuck all to help us in the last 13 years - childcare, care in general, violence against women, rape convictions, women in senior positions in business ........................ the list goes on. What have the Tories done for women?
And yet people will vote for them due to this one issue.

We can agree on the fact that the Remain campaign didn't do a great job. I think it spectacularly failed to make a positive case for Remain. I'm not sure if they overestimated thinking ability, but there was certainly a degree of complacency in thinking that the electorate could not possibly vote for something so damaging to the UK.

How is voting for the sitting government a protest vote?

Stop pretending Labour's misogyny is just a single 'wedge' issue of self-ID. Sex work is work, Rotherham, Telford etc grooming scandals, Leeds Holbeck managed zone, Birmingham & Glasgow city council equal pay debacles, Nottingham council banning working class feminists. Self-ID is just one tentacle of the massive misogynist shitshow that is 2023 Labour.

You know that Starmer has promised not to increase welfare spending and is keeping the two-child cap? You know that he takes sponsorship from payday loan companies? Do you really think that Labour will make any positive difference to the lives of the poorest women? They think women can make their way out of poverty by selling their arseholes.

I live in a borough that switched to Labour in 2022 elections. Guess what's changed here? Absolutely nothing apart from the councillors are now nowhere to be seen and there's a Pride march.

The party of women's rights, Sure Start, Clare Short and Mo Mowlam is dead and no amount of "but the Tories are EVIL" will change that.

I'm not voting Tory either. Never will.

Yes, I think a commitment to fairly represent 51% of the population in political discourse, legislation and policy making is the starting point for reasonable, democratic politics. I don't it's enough cross your fingers and hope you can sneak it back in later. I think we'll have the same economic shit And an insurmountable challenge for women to mobilize as a sex. But, have it your way, I'll play the monster.

Brexit won because when David offered it the voters who wanted out were Shocked the words came out of his mouth. It was supposed to be a Tory/Lib win so the Brexit could be shelved.
Then everyone who wanted Brexit got off their arses and voted, leaving the true blame on the idiots who spoilt or didn't vote....

I don’t think it was that even, it was just not listening or thinking strategically about what was said

I went through a stage of being pretty cross about this guy but Dominic Cummings is in an R4 programme on how to win a campaign

He rightly says politicians are bad at listening to what people really care about

Imo he heard what people said on immigration and won Brexit

And yes a simple line, but they are incredibly hard to get right, when you do though they work better than unfocused narrative

So, rhetoric aside, what's the actual evidence from the last 13 years that leads you to believe that the Tories will fairly represent women in legislation and policy making? Can you give me a few examples of how they have moved us forward in this area? (NB I'm not looking for the standard "they know what a woman is" but rather some practical evidence of how their policies have tangibly advanced women's rights.)

I actually do think the labour party could do better than the conservatives with the available resources. It's actually not even that hard to perform better than the conservative party really, even just making decision based on sound moral and ethical principles is better than most of them... the conservatives may have squandered most of the countries assets or syphoned them off into their own on their mates pockets. But I have hope based on the facts that the last time we had a labour government...things actually in the UK much more stable. There was actually a focus on the things they promised. Services. Education. The health sector wasn't on its knees..There was no expenses scandal (i.e. Tories syphoning off money for themselves at tax payers expense). No party gate (Tories having a piss up whilst they've told normal people not to even attend loved ones funerals) no dubious bribes for peerages etc using money from Tory donors to redecorate flats (Boris) free holidays to Mustique (also Boris) etc , dubious second or third jobs and influence (Owen Patterson, Nadine Dorries), porn in parliament meetings (Neil Parrish). I could go on...

I haven't seen the Tories give a commitment to fairly represent 51% of the population.

I have watched them cede our rights to TRAs in their own party. I have watched as rape has become practically decriminalised in their term of office. I have seen more families in economic dire straits than before. More foodbanks and a wrecked NHS.

You're playing the victim, no one has called you a monster.

I just think they are the least worst option on that score. I'm not here with my pom-poms out for them. I haven't seen the vicious attack on character among party members on those who won't kowtow to GI at any point that I have seen inflicted on Duffield for the temerity to speak on sex. Watching the Labour front bench ignore it all and attempt to maneuver her out of sight - telling her to avoid party conferences, etc, was the final nail in the coffin for me. How can you expect a party to operate democratically and represent women fairly and truthfully when they are unapologetic in behaving this way?

And Russel-look what you made me do - Moyle is high and dry.