We are going to end up with a Conservative government AGAIN at this rate, is that ok with everyone?

[MentholLoad]

following a thread on AIBU I think about who would vote Tories again.....the main (only?) reason people are citing for voting Tories is the GC issue. Women totally abandoning social politics over a singular issue. declaring nothing else matters, if Labour can't get this right then, they won't vote for them

I can't work out if these people were Conservative voter's anyway/actually do agree that Conservative policy and practice generally, is in our best interests compared with Labour

OR they are prioritising GC issues above and at the exclusion of all else? because alot more women will have a lot more issues, if we have yet another round of Conservative Government

And they are ignoring that Labour (finally!) defined women as adult human female

AND ignoring that this whole debacle has happened under the Tories 🤷🏼‍♀️

I completely agree that they didn't listen properly or address people's concerns. But for me, that also links to the fact that they failed to make a positive case for EU membership.

I don't think the failure to listen was necessarily about arrogance. I actually think it was cowardice. They weren't brave enough, for example, to make the positive case for immigration because they were afraid it would not be popular.

The reality is that this country relies on immigration and we are now suffering from significant labour shortages in many sectors despite net migration having actually increased since Brexit. We could have had an honest, grown-up discussion about why immigration is necessary and how to mitigate the potential impact of immigration on disadvantaged communities, public services etc. But they shied away from that because they didn't have the guts to tell the electorate the truth.

It's similar in a way to the problems that we have in responding to the crisis in social care, climate change etc. Politicians don't want to deliver difficult messages that the public don't want to hear, so they just bury their heads in the sand and do nothing.

OK, so it's mainly about the discourse rather than the actual policy? Your call, I suppose.

FWIW, I don't disagree with your stance on the Labour Party's treatment of Rosie Duffield. It has been shameful, and it is one of the reasons why I consider myself to be politically homeless.

However, I also think that actions speak louder than words, and while some Tories appear to have identified a potential electoral advantage in talking about sex-based rights, their actual record in government doesn't fill me with confidence that they actually mean any of it. I think they have simply spotted a gap in the political market that they're desperately trying to exploit.

Will someone who is going to vote labour in spite of the women/ gender issue explain why they don't expect more of labour on this issue?

Is it too much to expect women (and children) to matter to the Labour party?

And please don't answer this with 'yes but the Tories would be worse'.

I'm interested to know why we can't expect more of the opposition party when this issue affects every female in the country whether they can see that at the moment or not.

@Desecratedcoconut so you are a single policy voter then.

I actually think Labour have a more nuanced approach to GI than the Tories - because let's face it, it's difficult.

I just think the Tories just lie and lie and lie. They don't care about women as they have done NOTHING to help advance us in 13 years. Yet because they have a catchy trope on GI they will be deemed as 'pro-women' - which they demonstrably aren't.

I am most definitely in the TWANW camp but my god, the Tories have harmed women miles more than any trans women ever has. The Tories have inflicted terrible poverty on women and practically legalised rape.

I actually think Labour have a more nuanced approach to GI than the Tories - because let's face it, it's difficult

It’s not nuanced, it’s not difficult; it’s biological fact.

It really is simple. Or should be.

I think Theresa May did try that social care thing, but didn’t get ahead with it

However I sometimes hear politicians from other countries speak bluntly on an issue in a way we don’t get here and I find that frustrating. Even bluntly on the impact of increased migration. Things are going to be difficult, just say it

On superiority, I guess the campaign was a bit but moreover the public attitude towards Brexit voters likely pushed them further to a sod you lot vote

Also I know I’m not lacking on critical thinking and I know why I’ll vote as I will, so the repeated posts suggesting I’m doing it for other reasons or that I can’t think are a) untrue and b) pretty annoying

And it’s something I don’t see non centre left to much. I might disagree on conclusions but if people say they hold those views I believe them, why not, it’s their mind.

Immigration will change imo as AI increases and climate pushes more people to move, I can only see it going on one direction, more security

Single issue:

Single sex spaces
Safeguarding
Free Speech
Fair representation
Democratic values
A preference for politics without a culture of theism

For a start

I'd like to put it back on the OP. With all the many ways the Tories have fucked up the country - welfare, poverty, economy, NHS, net Zero - WHY are Labour still making self-ID a plank of their manifesto?

If they cared so much about the state of the nation they would prioritise NHS, welfare and economy and get those sorted - not piss about with self-ID and other trivia.

I do absolutely expect more on this issue, and have written to my local Labour candidate to express that view.

The gender issue (amongst some other concerns) does make me reluctant to vote Labour in many ways, and I will do so while holding my nose. For me, I'm afraid it does boil down to the answer that you don't want...I absolutely believe that the Tories will be worse and will vote for whichever party (bar UKIP or whatever it's called these days) is most likely to kick them out. In my constituency, that's Labour.

Of course I want and expect more from the opposition parties (not just Labour!). Of course I want and expect them to care about the rights of women. Of course if there was another viable alternative that stood a reasonable chance of ousting the Tories while actually promising to protect sex-based rights, I would vote for them. But I don't have that option.

In my constituency, I have only two realistic choices.

One is my entirely crap Tory MP, who is curiously silent on gender issues, standing for a party that purports to know what a woman is but whose actual record in government has been to trash women's rights in multiple different ways, while also trashing the economy, the NHS, education and our public services and dismantling the welfare state.

The other is a Labour candidate who is equally silent on gender issues, standing for a party that is utterly confused about what a woman is at best, but which I believe will do a better job in practice of delivering on the economy, the NHS, education and public services while actually trying to tackle the huge inequalities in our society. I believe that all of the above will benefit women more than any empty Tory rhetoric, and I can only hope that they will come to their senses on the gender issue... there have been signs, recently, that some of them may have "peaked" but it is difficult for them to admit this publicly without being accused of u-turns. Of course, I would love them to have the courage to be honest that they got it wrong, but I won't hold my breath...

AFAIK, Labour ditched Self ID a few months ago.

That's where I was in the last election @MrsBennetsPoorNerves, I held my nose and voted Labour again only to have the modicum of hope I retained that common sense would prevail completely extinguished.

I'm not some radically different person, with oppositional principles, I'm not thundering around telling other people what to do with their two shit choices.

I agree that Theresa May did try with the social care thing. Unfortunately, it didn't do her any favours politically but I respect her for having the guts to speak the truth instead of just kicking the can down the road. Indeed, while I disagreed with most of her politics, I do respect her as someone who acted with integrity and a sense of duty...in contrast with the self-interested careerists that have followed her.

I'm sure you have your reasons for voting the way you vote. Nobody has yet managed to explain the logic behind why they believe that the Tories would protect women's rights when all of the evidence points to the contrary, so I remain sceptical. I get that you find that annoying, and I'm sorry to annoy you - genuinely. For my part, I find it annoying when people repeatedly state that the Tories are the party of women's rights without offering any tangible evidence to back that up. We can agree to disagree.

Here's a bit on it @FKATondelayo.

I don't think that Labour ARE making self ID a 'plank' (?) of their manifesto?

I'm looking here; https://labourlist.org/2023/10/labour-national-policy-forum-final-document-summary-policy-manifesto-party-conference/

there is this, which says it will support single sex provision, in considering the GRA

I’m really hoping for legislation on biological definition of sex in Eq A

I’ve been watching the path to consultation, via WM debate, EHRC letter, to appointment to oversee.

It takes time and I doubt it’ll be ready pre GE but if I get to vote on it at GE I will. I’m not single issue though, I disagree with Labour on other things too ;

If it falls down for whatever reason, if it doesn’t get through or Labour kill it I’ll feel pretty despondent but won’t give up, I guess, hard to know beforehand

I'm not telling anyone what to do with their two shit choices either. People can vote for whoever they like. I just think the logic of voting Tory because of women's rights is fundamentally flawed and I am genuinely bewildered at how anyone can actually reach that conclusion.

The triumph of hope over experience, I guess. Or maybe some women have been so insulated from the Tory assault on women's rights to the extent that they just don't see it? I come into contact with vulnerable women all the time through work, so for me, there is no escaping from the reality that we're in.

Thissssssssss, this, a thousand times this.

I'm not saying GC matters aren't important, they absolutely are. But it's a privileged position to be worried about this over crushing child poverty. I work with poor kids, their lives are bollocksed currently and things are only getting worse.

I will never vote to erode women's rights so yep if need be I will vote conservative.
I also doubt labour can magically fix the economy so may as well just vote for the party which at least knows what a woman is.

Yes, I first worked with deprived kids just as this government came to power. The level of deprivation we saw then looks comfortable compared to what we see now and a lot of those parents are working 2 or 3 jobs. That didn't happen then either.

So is it your view that women's rights have been advanced in the last 13 years of Tory rule?

So you won't be voting for the party of sleazy sex scandals, that treat women as disposable or the one that presided over a disproportionate decline in women,'s healthcare then?

I think it's fair enough if you disagree with Labour on other stuff too. That was kind of the premise of my original point... that very few on the left would vote Tory for the sake of women's rights, because that would not be logical. If you're more aligned to the Tories with regard to other issues, then of course it makes sense that you would vote for them.

And while we probably disagree on most issues, I too would welcome legislation on the biological definition of sex in the EA. So on that, at least, there is common ground.

A vote for the Tories is a vote for the further degradation of UK women's rights and circumstances.

Labour have backed away from supporting self ID legislation but it looks as if they plan to remove the current requirement for a doctor's sign off before issuing a GRC. I believe they're voting on the proposal this week and that, if it goes through, it's likely to be in the manifesto.

Whatever they choose to call it, I'm struggling to see the difference between removing any barriers to obtaining a GRC and gender self ID. It doesn't help that, when they announced they were dropping self ID, they did so through a sympathetic newspaper and avoided answering any questions about it. It'll be interesting to see what's said in the conference debate, assuming there is one.