We are going to end up with a Conservative government AGAIN at this rate, is that ok with everyone?

[MentholLoad]

following a thread on AIBU I think about who would vote Tories again.....the main (only?) reason people are citing for voting Tories is the GC issue. Women totally abandoning social politics over a singular issue. declaring nothing else matters, if Labour can't get this right then, they won't vote for them

I can't work out if these people were Conservative voter's anyway/actually do agree that Conservative policy and practice generally, is in our best interests compared with Labour

OR they are prioritising GC issues above and at the exclusion of all else? because alot more women will have a lot more issues, if we have yet another round of Conservative Government

And they are ignoring that Labour (finally!) defined women as adult human female

AND ignoring that this whole debacle has happened under the Tories 🤷🏼‍♀️

It's a loaded question, the whole point of asking it is to try and trip people up.

I'd look "shifty" trying to answer it on camera too.

party that panders to an extremist minority viewpoint
Supporting transition/transgender people is not an "extremist minority viewpoint". Its the stated position of all the UK political parties including the Conservatives.

Self ID is a minority viewpoint but neither Labour or Conservatives are pushing that policy so its irrelevant.

Antisemitism is closer to misogyny than trans issues and umfortunately misogyny is tolerated in all the parties and society at large. The Conservatives in particular seem to have an issue with their male MPs watching porn in parliament (Green, Parrish).

So what's Starmer's definition of female?

Does it include males who are legally female through the process of GRC which his party is likely to announce will be made easier for men to get?

Because I spy Self ID through the back door.

He could SO EASILY be unequivocal and say that female excludes those with a GRC.

True. And that wasn’t ‘polling’ prior to that yet blew up for Corbyn

Rightly so given what’s going on with Hamas. Dangerous views

Yet I think it's blinkered to wilfully vote in a labour party that seems determined to remove women's rights wholesale.
**
Once they're lost there will be no turning back

I’m more concerned with human rights atm, a roof over people’s heads, a fair wage and employment protection, reliable healthcare, working to reduce the impacts of climate change, clean water, the list goes on. All of which significantly affect women. I suspect the majority of women feel the same way.

I agree. Why is it that in order for the Labour Party to get into government we are always told to put aside any concerns (eg anti Semitism, women's rights, child safe guarding, promotion of prostitution as valid career prospect etc) and vote for 'the greater good'?

And I say that as someone who voted for the Labour Party most of my adult life until I decided 'the greater good' wasn't actually that good after all and moved towards Lib Dem and the Greens. Now those two parties have completely lost the plot which leaves me between a rock and a hard place.

Agree with this.

Most people just want to be able to get a GP appointment and s good school for their kids.

The gender stuff doesn't register with most people

All of those things and an unequivocal statement that women will have single sex provisions away from all males, including transwomen with a GRC would be wonderful though wouldn't it?

And not so difficult if Starmer weren't under the thumb of lobbyists hell bent on removing women's rights.

He's such a disappointment on this issue.

What is the definition of a woman then? Of course we know the general characteristics but there are exceptions to every one of them.

I think politicians dodge the question because there's no answer that will satisfy people and be accurate. You want him to say 'a woman has female reproductive system and XX chromosomes'. But women have reproductive system removed, or are born without - there are conditions where babies are born with XY chromosomes but develop female anatomy, and vice versa for boys.

The number of people who wouldn't fit in traditional classifications is tiny but they do exist.

The Conservatives are also saying that GRC allows people to change their legal sex I.e. for men to become legally recognised as female:

Elizabeth Truss said: “it is the Government’s view that the balance struck in [the GRA] is correct, in that there are proper checks and balances in the system and also support for people who want to change their legal sex.”

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9079/

I have to hand it to the Tories that they have done an excellent job of obfuscation their actual position but that's because they have no qualms about being dishonest.

That's fine and it is your prerogative to think that and act on it accordingly at the next general election.

Maybe the majority of women feel the same way, maybe they don't. I don't know and I really wouldn't like to hazard a guess especially as the next general election is about a year away and a lot can change in that time.

I KNOW!

But this doesn't mean that Starmer shouldn't answer questions on this and be unequivocal if he wants women who are concerned about it to vote Labour!!!!!!!

The opposition has to WIN my vote on this.

The indications are that the Conservatives are listening to Women more on this issue than the Labour party.

The conservatives blocked self ID in Scotland. Any minute now, in spite of the issue being contentious, the Labour will announce it is going to water down the GRC process so that it is de -facto Self ID!

I don't think you are hard of thinking Adam but surely you understand that the Labour Party could easily reassure floating voters on this issue?

I am watching both parties on this issue, right now the Tories are more convincing. It won't win my vote because I can't vote for them for other policies. But it is a deal breaker for me actually voting Labour.

My conclusion is that the LP doesn't want my vote and they won't get it.

there are conditions where babies are born with XY chromosomes but develop female anatomy, and vice versa for boys.

If a baby is born with a Y chromosome they are genetically male, even if they had 1000 X chromosomes. That is an undisputable scientific fact.

But, I think by now everyone knows we aren't talking about about the very tiny number of people born with DSD. We are talking about men, the XY kind, saying they are women the XX kind.

@lifeturnsonadime Spoiling the ballot paper is the same as not voting, achieves nothing.

Even with tiny turn outs and even smaller majorities, parties will claim its "the will of the people" e.g Uxbridge byelection.

Labour, historically, back the public sector, that tends to help women.

The Tories recently cut SENDS funding, who will that impact? women and children, longer term, us all as these children struggle into adulthood.

I look at what parties do, not what they say.

The conservatives blocked self ID in Scotland. Any minute now, in spite of the issue being contentious, the Labour will announce it is going to water down the GRC process so that it is de -facto Self ID!

The Govt did not block self ID, they blocked the removal of a medical diagnosis, keeping Scotland in line with England on this, 1000s of GRCs have been issued, based on a medical diagnosis which to be honest is as simple as living as a woman for 2 years, almost 100% of those applying get a GRC.

Good that you know what Labour policy is BEFORE they announce it in their manifesto.

"You want him to say 'a woman has female reproductive system and XX chromosomes'. But women have reproductive system removed, or are born without - there are conditions where babies are born with XY chromosomes but develop female anatomy"

As you can see in any dictionary:

Woman = Adult human female

... where:

Female = Of the sex that can make eggs or bear young.

There are only two sexes. Each of us are OF the sex Female or OF the sex Male.

The existence of sexual development disorders does not change the basic fact that Homo Sapiens is a sexually dimorphic species, just like the existence of people born without one or both feet does not change the basic fact that Homo Sapiens is a bipedal species.

The existence of people whose genitals and reproductive organs were removed is also irrelevant, as they remain OF the female sex that can make eggs or bear young.

It might help alleviate your confusion if you think of other mammals, since we are mammals, too. Say, cattle:

Female of the species is a Cow. If she thinks she should be a Bull? She is still a cow. If her womb is removed for whatever reason? She is still a cow. Is there any way a cow can be turned into a bull? No.

Howpo · Today 10:46

The conservatives blocked self ID in Scotland”

That went well for them in the by-election. the priority for most Scottish voters is getting the tories out, even life-long SNP supporters. This single issue is at the bottom of the average voter’s list of concerns.

That wasn't my quote! Yes most Scots hate the Tories.

Of course the trans issue doesn't bother most people, what does is Roads, Ed, Health, Policing.

The posters pushing the Trans issues on almost any political thread, whatever the original post, are doing so as they are hardened Tory voters, whatever they might say.

Its all the Tories have left after a disastrous 13 years in power, for which they ve nothing to show for it, even their traditional strong points - Policing, Defence they both abandoned and underfunded both, leading to huge cuts.

Well there are some fresh announcements from Labour this morning.

Dealing with stalking, rape advocacy and sexual harassment. That is for biological women.

I think the Labour Party well knows biological women need help.

I too want to see the trans issue resolved with regard to single sex services. But I really want them to come in and investigate all these dubious people who were allowed into and to influence schools, hospitals and the police. Charities should not be putting into effect policy because that is the job of government. The Conservatives could have regulated and provided guidance in accordance with the law. They didn't bother to stop that process. They certainly had the means, but not the motive to do so.

Labour are far more on the same page to TRAs, unions which promote actions in schools etc and Stonewall

That posters think this will improve and not get worse is blind to the reality

I'm looking right at the Labour party and what it is going to do for women.

With absolute respect it is up to me how to vote, If I choose not to vote for a party that has abandoned women in favour of a lobby group hell-bent on the removal of women's rights, that's MY choice.

Don't try to shame me in to abandoning my principles.

Labour has never even managed to vote in a female leader.

They are not the champion of women's rights that some on here believe.

They are in the pockets of men's rights activists.

If they cared enough about women, they would make it unequivocal now that they don't intend for any males to be deemed to be women. Why don't they?

I trust them on this issue about as much as I trust they have rid the party of antisemitic views.

And yes the many Scots do hate the Tories for their policies but many also opposed Self ID and were grateful that was not rushed through by the SNP.

Women's rights should not been seen as a left/ right issue.

We should expect MORE of the left. It is not right wing to want women to be classed as ONLY adult human females (excluding tw with a GRC).

@lifeturnsonadime Wooah where did that come from?

I m just pointing out to you the reality of spoiling your ballot paper, its meaningless.

Now you re just spouting BS "hell bent on removing womens rights" Do you live under a stone?

In Tory Britain, a raped woman has almost zero chance of having her case go to court, even less a conviction.
My neighbour has zero opportunity to have female carers, she puts up with the indignity of male carers (as good as they are) or she has non, thats her life under the Conservatives.

Ain't happening under a Labour Govt but you keep on bellowing about how Labour have destroyed female rights.

It comes from frustration that people think that voting Labour is a pro-woman position.

It just isn't.

I don't want to spoil my ballot paper but I won't vote Labour with their current anti - woman views.