We are going to end up with a Conservative government AGAIN at this rate, is that ok with everyone?

[MentholLoad]

following a thread on AIBU I think about who would vote Tories again.....the main (only?) reason people are citing for voting Tories is the GC issue. Women totally abandoning social politics over a singular issue. declaring nothing else matters, if Labour can't get this right then, they won't vote for them

I can't work out if these people were Conservative voter's anyway/actually do agree that Conservative policy and practice generally, is in our best interests compared with Labour

OR they are prioritising GC issues above and at the exclusion of all else? because alot more women will have a lot more issues, if we have yet another round of Conservative Government

And they are ignoring that Labour (finally!) defined women as adult human female

AND ignoring that this whole debacle has happened under the Tories 🤷🏼‍♀️

Plus look at @lifeturnsonadime post earlier

And others on FWR

Also probably better to read posts from women without a you’re lying pre judgement

Because I usually credit people with enough basic intelligence to be able to analyse the facts of a situation, and based on the facts, I can't believe that anyone would choose the Tories out of a genuine wish to promote women's rights.

To be clear, I'm not saying that the Labour Party has got things right on this issue. They haven't. I am just baffled as to why people are so quick to believe that the Tories are somehow now the champions of women's rights because of a few carefully targeted soundbites when their record in government tells such a different story.

We know that some voters make a decision based on a single issue while others vote on the basis of the broader manifesto. It's hard to get a sense of how voters feel about single sex spaces and women's rights because a lot of the polling is done privately for the political parties themselves and is not shared with the general public. The data we do have - mainly from research about the culture wars - suggests that most people see themselves as somewhere in the middle.

It's really hard to predict what would happen in a general election compared with what most people in the country think because of differential turnout - more people aged 50 plus vote - and our first past the post system which makes swing seats more important.

Well you’re wrong tbh women you disagree with probably are intelligent and thinking it through, quite a lot actually

Just read what posters are saying. Instead of coming at it with politically closed mind

I would never vote Tory. However I reserve the right to hold my Labour candidate to account over women’s rights. I live in one of the most marginal seats that is predicted to go to Labour.

I am sick and bloody tired of the non stop shit and wokery I come across daily as a civil servant.

It’s a fucking regressive cult. It’s not even about trans people - just an incel-like men’s rights movement.

Why do you think that the Government directly control the civil service & what goes on in schools and hospitals?

I absolutely get that it happened under the Tory government, but they are now active in taking steps to try to back track.

Under a Labour Government Scotland would now have Isla Bryson in a Women's prison and we would be fully on track to self ID too.

So I'm not sure what your point is?

Listening to Labour tying themselves in knots over Lammy sitting down with the Palestinian Ambassador (who said that the Israelis "had it coming to them") Labour have bigger problems than the Trans issue.

Contrary to what you might think, I have read what people are saying, over and over, really trying to understand where people are coming from. I just haven't yet read any convincing arguments on this issue.

FWIW, I'm not saying that anyone is lacking in intelligence. Quite the contrary, actually - I am assuming that most people are capable of analysing the facts. This is why I struggle to see how anyone could genuinely believe that the Tories are going to be the champions of women's rights. It doesn't stack up.

But we are going round and round in circles without getting anywhere. We are going to have to agree to disagree.

Fine by me. Not everyone has to agree on issues. I’m ok with that (just want to credit posters with honesty)

Bear in mind that whilst violent trans women are not allowed in English prisons (a policy only just introduced) non violent offenders can and are put in women's prisons.

As we already have a form of self ID via the GRC, i'm not sure why you have such faith in the Cons.

I am quite clear in my mind that the Tories would be better long term for women's rights than Labour who will go on to include males in their definition of women and have taken no steps to indicate that they want to protect children from trans ideology.

Poor women, incidentally, come off worse when males are also women, as they are more likely to need access to rape crisis / domestic abuse refuge and are statistically more likely to end up in prison.

All women are likely to be impacted by issues surrounding equal pay when statistics show that there is no real difference between men and women when it comes to equal pay because males who have not had to go through periods of maternity leave and who have potentially started off on higher wages because of male privilege are included as women in statistics.

Sporty women may well give up or loose places to males who would be mediocre when competing in their sex class.

When we send our daughters to a shared room in university they might find that the other girl is male.

Our girls might struggle to drink at school or refuse school when they have their periods because of their lack of privacy.

Religious minority women or women who have suffered domestic abuse might engage with public life less as they won't want to be away from home if they need the toilet because they can't share a single sex space with males.

this list is not exhaustive......

Because this will get worse under Labour not better, unless they make specific pre-election promises about this issue they do not deserve my vote.

I'm not a conservative voter.

I do have more faith in the cons than labour on this point though because I know the work that Baroness Nicholson is doing and Sunak has been 'a bit' clearer on this than Starmer.

This should not be a party political issue.

All parties should want to protect women and children.

But aren't most of those things happening right now after 13 years of Tory rule?

In the meantime, women have been disproportionately affected by Tory economic policy. Rape has, to all intents and purposes been legalised. The Tories voted against the idea of recognising misogyny as a hate crime. And their own female MPs have accused the party of institutional sexism.

We can agree that this shouldn't be a party political issue, and that all parties need to do more to protect the rights of women and children. Absolutely.

You do a very good job of promoting the Tories for a non Tory voter!

Nicolson voted against Gay marriage, i'm not sure she is a good advocate for all women? she cited that she admired T.May as one reason she rejoined the Cons after being LD member (having previously been a Tory MP)

I just look around me at the state of womens rights in the UK and see how much they have been watered down or removed over the last decade or so.

I wouldn’t worry if I were you OP, Labour will get in due to the disaster that is the SNP crumbling in Scotland and Labour being the least worst alternative. The majority of those seats will go to Labour and that will be more than enough to shove them over the line. It won’t be determined on the gender issue….it will be determined by the shit show that is the SNP crumbling (interestingly part of that is the gender issue but it is just one of a myriad of incompetent policy blunders the SNP have made)

I would like to vote for a proper socialist party, and there isn’t one. Living in Scotland there are other options. The whole transgender thing is a mess and causes people to argue that should be listening to each other.

Because this will get worse under Labour not better, unless they make specific pre-election promises about this issue they do not deserve my vote.

I don’t blame you. It will get worse and very hard to change back.

I saw Angela Rayner”s video about her mother calling her during an interview. OMG really! Is this what people want for this country? 😳 I know frustration is running high but this would be suicide.

Sorry but why is her Mum ringing her so bad? suicidal even?

Its not Rayners Video either.

Maybe you don't like your mum.

Lets face it, they are all a bunch of incompetant dickheads who are so far out of touch with the real world they might aswell live on the moon. I dont know one single public sector worker who thinks the Tories are amazing, theyve shafted them left right and centre

I've never voted Tory in my life.

I have spoiled the ballot over this issue and UNLESS Labour do better on this issue that's, sadly, what will have to happen again.

I know NIcolson voted against gay marriage, I disagree with her views on that, but it doesn't mean that she is not a force for good on THIS issue.

T May got it wrong on self ID.

We are where we are with this. I would love a public cross party inquiry into how civil servants were able to be swayed by a lobby group. I doubt it will happen.

In the meantime, given that Labour are overwhelmingly likely to win the next election it is THEIR opinion and views on this that I am looking to see improvements from.

They are the opposition party. Where has their opposition been to these things that have happened under the Tories?

They have been remarkably silent on the erasure of women's rights as opposition, rather than being publicly appalled that a woman was raped by a trans women in a single sex ward we have Nandy who has publicly stated that rapists who identify as trans women should be in women's prisons. Now that statement preceded the NHS incident but where is her retraction? Also Lammy calling women dinosaurs. For shame! They could do so much better.

@Howpo Oh dear it is not even about the fact that she took the call. Anyway, pretty sure Labour would be the ones alienating people before the elections. Angela Rayner is political suicide for the party.

For some reason no posters want to engage on this so I'll try again.

This is the Conservative government position as of 2020, following their consultation on transgender rights:

Elizabeth Truss said: “it is the Government’s view that the balance struck in [the GRA] is correct, in that there are proper checks and balances in the system and also support for people who want to change their legal sex.”
The Minister acknowledged the need to improve the process and experience transgender people have when applying for a GRC, to make it: “kinder and more straightforward.” She said the Government’s proposed changes would address the main concerns transgender people had expressed. The GRC application process is to be moved online and the fee has been reduced from £140 to £5.
Elizabeth Truss said the Government would improve access to healthcare for transgender people, who had reported that waiting lists at NHS gender clinics are too long.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9079/

In summary the Conservative position is to keep the GRA and make it easier to get a GRC. They have not yet said anything specific about strengthening sex based rights.

That means that legally trans women with a GRC are women and legally some women have penises.

The Labour and Conservative positions on this are identical. The answer to the question "can women have a penis?" Is different because Sunak is not giving a full answer to the question. He knows full well that legally yes some "women" have a penis and he has no plans to change that.

This "Conservatives know what a woman is" is a bunch of hot air and women are being hoodwinked.

As always with the Conservatives, look at what they do, not what they say. What are they proposing that will actually protect women's rights?