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Feminism: chat

Feminism: sex and gender

Original poster

White Feminism

598 replies

Brefugee · 22/08/2023 10:25

suggested from another thread, is this something we should talk about. At the risk of being accused of being a TAAT it isn't that.

But on another thread a black MNer said that at a conference she had experienced racist comments from a panel, and she was the only one who pointed it out. And had been the only black person in the room.

The reason i brought up White Feminism on that thread was that the poster was instantly dismissed as a potential derailing troll. Which is... well not sure if the person dismissing the poster is white or not, but it was pretty much the very same treatment. Immediately written off as insignificant.

I've seen comments on the FWR board before that White Feminism rears its ugly head a lot, and that black mumsnetters don't feel comfortable on the board.

I find that shocking. But I'm not black or of any other minority. I'm a white 2nd waver - and i hope that i don't make racist comments or dismiss black women's experiences. I do hope that if i did, they would point that out to me. (and I'd be sorry they have to do that work)

So - should we talk about this? I do think it causes rifts where we should have bridges.

OP posts:
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17
JanetP1990 · 22/08/2023 16:43

AlisonDonut · 22/08/2023 16:35

They should, but how could people on this board now, be responsible for what WPUK session leads did or didn't do in a separate conference?

This is specifically the board that has been hived off to focus on Sex and Gender discussions, hence concentrating on discussions of sex and gender.

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Definitely not saying anyone on this board is responsible. It was part of a comment that I made on another thread. I did not blame anyone and if you read my previous threads I have not called anyone racist or accused anyone of anything. But as the conversation has progressed it has just felt like a large proportion of comments are: are you sure that really happened? This is not the right place to talk about that (even on this thread that was started because when told that the last thread wasn’t the right forum, I respected that and moved onto this one). You have some ulterior motive to wanting to discuss anything to do with race, maybe a motive that is in fact detrimental to our feminist movement around gender…

NewNameNigel · 22/08/2023 16:44

RebelliousCow · 22/08/2023 15:56

I don't appreciate being told who or what I can communicate/disagree with and about.

That's not a very good analogy, either.

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I was answering a direct question from another poster who asked, in those exact words if they can find drag queens offensive as well as blackface. The post was not aimed at you.

Can you explain why you think my analogy is bad?

Both are claiming their own experience are the same as something they have never experienced.

redrighthand83 · 22/08/2023 16:44

Perhaps we can have the post moved so we can stop this derailment - have reported.

Its an important discussion that needs to be had.

DarkDayforMN · 22/08/2023 16:45

Maybe having a movement that includes all types of women isn’t important to some

You do realise that "including all types of women" is usually code for "centring males in dresses?"And there's a reason that males in dresses use this type of rhetoric; it's a divide and conquer strategy on their part.

This topic matters. But given that the WPUK accusation was originally made on the SH thread, and now there is this kind of language being deployed on this spinoff thread, I suspect this thread is much too vulnerable to being derailed to provide any useful insights. I'm bowing out but I wanted to point out that context for the benefit of others.

RebelliousCow · 22/08/2023 16:46

Magicoven · 22/08/2023 16:42

Is this board solely about trans issues then? Probably worth getting the thread moved, had the potential to be interesting but people are more concerned about gate keeping the board evidently.

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This board relates very specificaly to issues around women's sex based rights and the negative impact of transgender ideology on women's rights, dignity, protections and safety; as well as to the negative impacts of this ideology on children and young people.

JanetP1990 · 22/08/2023 16:46

I think calling it a ‘distraction’ says everything that it needs to tbh

Clymene · 22/08/2023 16:47

Are a lot of comments on this thread questioning what happened @JanetP1990? I saw one person on the other thread assuming you must be a troll but I haven't noticed it on this thread. I'm sorry if I missed it.

Have you been in touch with A Women's Place yet? I'm sure they'd welcome your feedback.

Magicoven · 22/08/2023 16:48

JanetP1990 · 22/08/2023 16:46

I think calling it a ‘distraction’ says everything that it needs to tbh

Yep, it's massively privileged to centre your view of feminism around one topic which evidently lots do. Agree with others this board isn't the place for a balanced discussion.

AlisonDonut · 22/08/2023 16:48

JanetP1990 · 22/08/2023 16:43

Definitely not saying anyone on this board is responsible. It was part of a comment that I made on another thread. I did not blame anyone and if you read my previous threads I have not called anyone racist or accused anyone of anything. But as the conversation has progressed it has just felt like a large proportion of comments are: are you sure that really happened? This is not the right place to talk about that (even on this thread that was started because when told that the last thread wasn’t the right forum, I respected that and moved onto this one). You have some ulterior motive to wanting to discuss anything to do with race, maybe a motive that is in fact detrimental to our feminist movement around gender…

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Do I?

When people said you were derailing, did they accuse you of having ulterior motives? Or did they just say that posting slap bang in the middle of a thread about a man who we've not been allowed to mention for half a decade wasn't appropriate and maybe needed a separate thread?

This board is where general discussions have been hived off out of sight and out of mind. So yes I'd say that maybe this is the wrong board for a completely separate discussion. Not our rulez.

redrighthand83 · 22/08/2023 16:49

Magicoven · 22/08/2023 16:48

Yep, it's massively privileged to centre your view of feminism around one topic which evidently lots do. Agree with others this board isn't the place for a balanced discussion.

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I have asked MN to move it to Feminism chat.

ColinTheGenderMinotaur · 22/08/2023 16:51

AlisonDonut · 22/08/2023 16:35

They should, but how could people on this board now, be responsible for what WPUK session leads did or didn't do in a separate conference?

This is specifically the board that has been hived off to focus on Sex and Gender discussions, hence concentrating on discussions of sex and gender.

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Especially as the original comment that sparked this thread was on a thread about a white, male sex offender who victimised an adolescent boy, so nothing to do with WPUK (and I’m Team DonesticatedZombie FTW so I’m certainly not trying to prevent criticism of WPUK)

Personally, I hope all topics are open for debate but even free discussion does require a bit of organisation (hence why panel debates have moderators/hosts)!

RebelliousCow · 22/08/2023 16:51

NewNameNigel · 22/08/2023 16:44

I was answering a direct question from another poster who asked, in those exact words if they can find drag queens offensive as well as blackface. The post was not aimed at you.

Can you explain why you think my analogy is bad?

Both are claiming their own experience are the same as something they have never experienced.

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A man is not a woman. A woman can identify with other women in a way that a man cannot.

What we have in common is our femaleness and the consequneces of that femaleness on our lives - regardless of circumstance and background.

For example, I'm currently haunted by the image of the young Pakistani girl who was murdered by her father ( and other family members), who then fled to Pakistan leaving her dead body behind. She suffered multiple, long term injuries. She was presented in photographs as one might expect an adult women to present ( despite being just 10 years old) - in make up and elaborate jewellery. We are told she " wanted to be a supermodel".

I intuit the many levels of sexism and misogyny she was subject too -even though, I , myself come from a differnt background and was not abused in such a way as a child.

RebelliousCow · 22/08/2023 16:53

I feel that persecution - deeply - as a fellow female human being.

RebelliousCow · 22/08/2023 16:54

redrighthand83 · 22/08/2023 16:44

Perhaps we can have the post moved so we can stop this derailment - have reported.

Its an important discussion that needs to be had.

You have actually reported people's posts? You are here to censure and suppress disagreement?

RebelliousCow · 22/08/2023 16:55

I'm of a mond to report your posts, or else ask they be removed to an appropriate forum. Have you no idea what people on this board have been through for the last six or seven years?

redrighthand83 · 22/08/2023 16:55

RebelliousCow · 22/08/2023 16:54

You have actually reported people's posts? You are here to censure and suppress disagreement?

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No, I am simply trying to allow this conversation to continue rather than have to deal with the posts saying this isnt the right Board for this content?

I have asked MN to move it off the sex and gender board and onto main feminism chat.

BaronMunchausen · 22/08/2023 16:57

Waitwhat23 · 22/08/2023 15:09

This is the way I feel about it after some excellent and compelling posts on the subject by black posters on this board some time ago. The level of violence and aggression which accompanied blackface just isn't comparable to drag for example. I find drag offensive because of its inherent misogyny (all the fishy nonsense for example) but don't think it can reasonably be compared to blackface.

I tend to lurk and learn on these type of threads purely because I'm a white woman who lives in a very white country (Scotland) and I feel like an uninformed dickhead putting my two pence worth in. I didn't see the posts referred to in this OP (I think I was on the thread referred to earlier but have only been on here sporadically over the last couple of days) but I really don't like the idea that a person's experience of racism is being ignored or devalued.

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Of all the loose analogies based on 'blackface', it always seems to be 'womanface' that attracts the most opprobium. Not Jewface. Not yellowface. Or any other -face. Just 'womanface'.

I do worry that framing the analogy (which is what it is - a shorthand analogy for offensive caricature used by an oppressor-class to mock and control - not x=y) as a trivialisation of the history and experience of African-American and African-Caribbean people, is sometimes borne out of the trivialisation of patriarchal oppression and the experience of women. There is a market and an appetite for that trivialisation.

The level of violence and aggression shown by men towards women can't be dismissed as so incomparable as to make any comparison offensive. Its automatic attenuation indicates that society treats misogyny as part of the woodwork, a comfortable arrangement widely and explicitly accepted as a natural part of multiple societies in a way that racism is, thankfully, not.

Quite apart from MVAWG in this country, across much of the world women and girls are treated as the property of men. Rape treated as a property crime against the male kinship groups whose property they are, and femicide as punishment for any perceived offence to male pride. Rape used as a weapon of war. And we are talking about now.

The points of analogy with blackface are sometimes used to wrench others out of complacency. We can learn new things based on the things that we already understand - using analogies is a standard educational strategy.

roarrfeckingroar · 22/08/2023 16:59

NonnyMouse1337 · 22/08/2023 12:32

Women are allowed to focus on the issues that concern them the most, including white women. I don't expect white women to 'do' any kind of 'work' on my behalf as a South Asian woman. I'm perfectly capable of advocating for myself and able to join multiple groups with overlapping or distinct goals.

It would be quite arrogant of me to join a group that was predominantly white and expect them to understand everything about South Asian culture or even be extremely interested in issues specific to South Asian women. They might be concerned and sympathetic and willing to learn more, but at the end of the day, I have full agency to join or set up a group specifically for South Asian women if there are specific issues that need to be discussed or to organise and promote general awareness, campaigning activities etc. Even a South Asian group would be too broad and divided over socio-economic class, and so on.

White women are not some universal mother to fuss over and coddle everyone else. Women of different social, economic and ethnic backgrounds can come together to find common cause in certain cases (and there are plenty of things we do have common ground on) but also women can find other spaces to focus on what matters most to them.

Bloody well said

DarkDayforMN · 22/08/2023 16:59

redrighthand83 · 22/08/2023 16:55

No, I am simply trying to allow this conversation to continue rather than have to deal with the posts saying this isnt the right Board for this content?

I have asked MN to move it off the sex and gender board and onto main feminism chat.

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I think that's a great idea. Anyone who's posting on this thread simply to cause disruption on the Sex and Gender board will presumably get bored quickly if it gets moved, and the sincere posters can carry on.

NewNameNigel · 22/08/2023 16:59

JanetP1990 · 22/08/2023 16:46

I think calling it a ‘distraction’ says everything that it needs to tbh

Issues that impact black women are often seen as a distraction from the greater good of white women's liberation.

RebelliousCow · 22/08/2023 16:59

JanetP1990 · 22/08/2023 16:46

I think calling it a ‘distraction’ says everything that it needs to tbh

You would say that because sex and gender issues are not your main focus.

RebelliousCow · 22/08/2023 17:12

Magicoven · 22/08/2023 16:48

Yep, it's massively privileged to centre your view of feminism around one topic which evidently lots do. Agree with others this board isn't the place for a balanced discussion.

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This board is indeed centred on that issue because for those of us that post here, it is the most fundamental threat to women's rights and protections and dignity - -regardless of race, religion, class background, culture.....

ColinTheGenderMinotaur · 22/08/2023 17:16

NewNameNigel · 22/08/2023 16:59

Issues that impact black women are often seen as a distraction from the greater good of white women's liberation.

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This sounds like American Cultural Imperialism.

turbonerd · 22/08/2023 18:16

I have read this thread with great interest, but I wondered if it would be ok if some one, or JanetP herself could tell this New thread what happened at WPUK and what was said that wasn’t adressed?

Only if you’d be ok with that @JanetP1990

TooBigForMyBoots · 22/08/2023 19:14

Clymene · 22/08/2023 15:57

Unless you can provide any evidence of a lot of 'FWR regulars' being really opposed to the Black Mumsnetters board @redrighthand83, I'm going to assume you're shit stirring.

The only name I recognise on the thread PatricksRum started in Chat is mine and I said I thought it was a great idea. I still do.

I was the one who said that. I said it because it's true. There are multiple 40 page threads about having a BlackMumsnetters forum before it was finally introduced. I was shocked by the amount of FWR regulars opposed to it because I thought if anyone understands the need for women to have space to speak without being drowned out by a more dominant group, it would be feminists.

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