Do you think porn is going to get even more violent and men’s demand for so called ’kinky’ sex even stronger when hopefully women are getting braver to stay single?

[CantAskAnyoneElse]

Didn’t get any answer on the other board, so I’ll try here.

While women started to get more educated, be more at the work force and having little bit more say in who and when or if they date, porn was pushed more and more to the mainstream and violent sex with that.

There has to be a correlation.

And now there has been quite a few articles and studies of women choosing to remain single (they don’t usually say, but I’m guessing some women at least are also opting out of having sex with men) and single and childfree women being happiest demographic.

Do you think that sexual behaviour, weather it’s porn / men using prostitutes / so called kinky community or ’sex positivity’ movement that is constantly eroding women’s boundaries, will get even more violent and degrading towards women?

Yes, but people on here always seem to push the idea that it's driven by men and that women are innocent bystanders as opposed to often being just as keen or initiating it. Obviously nobody wants to be strangled to death but that's not a usual component of having rough sex and it's disingenuous to portray it this way.

The porn videos online showing women irrumated so forcefully that they vomit is instigated by very eager men who take pleasure in filming and publishing footage of them abusing women, if even women later watch it (which is something I struggle to understand, what kind of person gets off on watching someone sobbing and vomiting?). This isn't the same at all as a mutually eager bondage scene. Yet watching the latter will lead to watching the former because of how the search and recommendation algorithms on Pornhub work, and the latter is what men think of when a woman says "I like it rough". The problem is not how you like having sex, it's how men treat you when you tell them how you like sex.

and the latter is what men think of when a woman says "I like it rough".

I meant former. If men thought the latter, there wouldn't be a problem.

if even women later watch it (which is something I struggle to understand, what kind of person gets off on watching someone sobbing and vomiting?

See, this is where it's actually of benefit to read the available studies rather than jumping to conclusions and confidently parroting unproven anecdata.

A large number of women have rape fantasies and with the more violent/extreme ones there is an over representation of women who've suffered abuse. This is what the available studies say anyway.

So, yes, male violence is likely still a factor in this but not in the manner most people think. Jumping to the conclusion that men are the principle viewers and trying to analyse this is likely a red herring if it's mainly women watching it. A better focus would be on trying to help these women find the proper channels for dealing with their trauma rather than focusing on demographics who aren't the main viewers.

I'm enlightened and wishing I wasn't. I'm horrified that abused women are replaying their abuse by watching similar porn, but I also realise that I shouldn't be surprised. Abused children act out what the abusing adults teach them, and those abused children grow up. I'd never thought about what they'd grow up into before

I'm just reading back my previous post and my opening paragraph comes across really snarky, so apologies for that. I'm not saying that you're 'parroting anecdata' as that's a pretty confrontational thing to say. I was more trying to explain my view that people often make assumptions that seem logical but don't really match up with what the data is saying (which can also be ambiguous itself or not tell the full story).

However, in this case I'm thinking the studies do seem feasible. I did also notice the parallel between abused people going on to abuse - I think it's on my mind after reading about Barbie Kardashian.

I saw this and thought of this thread. https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/23490024.cameron-edwards-jailed-raping-north-yorkshire-girl/

What makes things different is that real violence is now considered normal. Until recently I had never heard of choking or face-slapping as a sex game. Anyone I knew would have (wisely) dumped any man who did that to her.

Historically, women have had to submit to prostitution and husband’s choice of sex practices etc in societies/situations where they had no other way of making a living. We gained freedom in many parts of the world in the 20th century.

You are probably right OP.

I do wonder - trying to be positive - if men will evolve or self regulate so that the ones who want female partners will start to more clearly distance themselves from the incel/aggressive types. Speak out about this more. I hope so.

it’s not just online porn is it - game of thrones shows powerful women engaged in a world of nudity, taboo sex etc. That was so mainstream and watched by women of course too. No wonder people get the message that women ‘like’ this type of sex

After reading about Sam Levison’s The Idol and the following quote by one of the female actors, I was looking for a thread that was relevant to my thoughts about the mainstreaming and normalisation of the sexual degradation of women. Such that women have internalised sexual degradation and injuries as empowerment in order to cope with the cognitive dissonance. Akin to how pole dancing naked in front of men was empowerment but that on steroids.

But after reading this thread, I just feel depressed. Anyone who ‘enjoys’ being hurt is someone who hates themselves. The key word in that following quote is damaged and young women are being damaged. And depressingly, that damage leads to so many young women to hate themselves after decades of being told to by a sick patriarchy. I still hold onto the belief that women, whatever they may claim, do not and never have enjoyed being degraded or hurt including in the most of intimate of human acts. It’s not fucking subversive. It’s the Stockholm syndrome but worse. But it is getting more extreme with the internet and late capitalism’s profit driven need for ever greater attention grabbing. Dress it up how you want. I also don’t think the vast majority of men want this either.

“I’ve heard so many girls get really frank and say: ‘It felt like the most subversive thing I could crave was sex that not only didn’t involve me being strong, but involved me being disempowered,’” says Nef. “In Jocelyn, we get to peer into the psyche of a woman where that damage was done. Are they the desires and rules of the patriarchy? Absolutely. But that doesn’t mean she doesn’t want them.”

Akin to how pole dancing naked in front of men

Pole dancing is complicated because it exists in multiple contexts. It can be framed and performed as an aerial acrobatic art in the same vein as trapeze, hoop, corde lisse, etc, with competitions like ice skaters and gymnasts have; and it can be framed and performed as an exploitative sexual display for paying men in the same vein as stripping and lap dancing. The briefness of the costume isn't (just) to titillate because bare skin is needed to stick to the pole, regardless of context. You can train barefoot for most of the move repertoire, but some advanced moves (for example, knee kips) require the heeled boots as PPE stopping you from breaking your toes. I train in a woman-owned pole and aerial studio offering mixed-sex classes that has produced national champions, so you can probably guess how I usually frame pole dancing. But in Spearmint Rhino it's not going to be framed the same way and the idea of any woman being paid by men to dance for their sexual pleasure makes me feel a bit ill. As someone once told me on Twitter: "it's not how you dance, it's how they [men] watch".

Leen Isabella nailed it with her cartoon.

The cognitive dissonance for me is why so many women lap up BDSM tat like Fifty Shades and talk about 'finding their own Mr Gray' if it's all coming from men. Surely it's not just that us silly little women don't know our own minds and it's all 'internalised misogyny'?

Oh, just read the few posts preceding mine and people are indeed saying it's internalised misogyny. 😂 I just don't buy it tbh.

Such that women have internalised sexual degradation and injuries as empowerment

I can't speak for how sexual degradation is perceived as empowering. I can speak as to how the "no pain, no gain" mantra from the fitness industry and the huge levels of self-sacrifice made by elite athletes as testified to here would bleed across into other areas, including sex. In both aerial and pole, bruises and callouses are inevitable because of the nature of the activity, and I already talked about how pole dancing can be empowering competitive exercise or degrading sexual exploitation, just by changing the venue and audience. I can see how the reasoning might go something like, "self-sacrifice is deemed a good thing for athletes, pain and bruising are OK if you think the outcome is worth it, therefore pain and bruising are OK if it means pleasing my man", failing to notice that there's no benefit to the woman in pleasing a man, whereas there is a benefit of feeling accomplished in winning a race or getting your first Jade pose.

It's absolutely this in my opinion. I was young and stupid enough to be v impressionable when 50 shades came out. I 'lapped it up' because i was supposed to, everyone did (and had never read anything erotic before). Now I'm older and wiser, having reflected on these things, I find it horrifying.

I find anyone who enjoys rough sex - or effectively being degraded - probably needs to think about the root cause of that. Aware I'll be hung out to dry by the sex-positive cool girl crowd, but I really struggle to see it any other way.

I don’t know much/care about 50 shades, but the interesting observation I made about the critism againts it was that men seem to be really upset of the fact that the lead male was handsome and rich.
They tried to hide it as critism, apperently it was how ’kinksters’ really act, but the biggedt gripe really seemed to be the good looking with money part.
I think men are so used to seeing ugly/poor/loser men getting hot women that it shook them up good.

So, in terms of injury tolerance, I outlined a possible source in the misapplication of "no pain, no gain" to a sexual context. Thinking some more about the "rough sex" aspect, there's also the fact that mild pain can feel enjoyable because the brain releases endorphins in response to it. I'm autistic, so I process pain differently from neurotypical people, which might explain why I like mild pain. Then there's also corporal punishment of children by their parents. When you hit a child, you model that it's OK to hit someone that you love and being hit is a sign of love. Corporal punishment is known to cause depression and other mental health problems and reduced self-esteem, as well as possibly impairing children's frontal cortex development. Is it such a stretch to hypothesise that the child might grow into an adult who accepts hitting or being hit by an intimate partner?

In terms of degradation, it's something that's always been a "hell, no" (or "hard limit" in BDSM argot) for me. Being called "slut" or "whore" will pull me out of sub-space instantly and I will safeword and spit venom at the dom who tries it.

It took getting an autism diagnosis for me to understand what I get out of sexual submission and bondage: not having to make decisions and having permission not to make decisions. I did all the decision-making upfront when I gave my list of limits and preferences, I don't have to do it during sex.

@bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg sorry if I'm missing your point but doesn't your post rather prove my point?

Did I say I was disagreeing with you? What you and others have said is helping me analyse why I like what I like and consider whether I should try to address the "whys" and if it's even possible to do so. A person can heal from abuse but I am autistic and that's unchangeable.

I'm still not persuaded either way. I think a lot of women also 'rationalise away' their kinks and try and find an explanation that makes them the bystander rather than an active eager participant (e.g. just going along with what the men want).

So, bystander versus participant: women are still shamed in current year for enjoying sex. Turning sex into something that is done to you (a passive role, which I think is what you were thinking of when you wrote bystander) instead of something that you do (an active role, a participant) allows the woman to give herself permission to enjoy it.

I agree. So why are we trying to turn women into helpless bystanders? If you want to be tied up and spanked just do it.

Well, I agree that women shouldn't feel ashamed. I'm not convinced that many are doing these mental gymnastics to 'allow themselves to enjoy it'.

I mean, firstly there's no obligation to even tell people what you get up to in the bedroom if you feel uncomfortable sharing. I think lots of women just like kinky sex and it annoys some feminists.

I really like the Gail Dines talks on this issue. She makes perfect sense and it had helped me to talk to my girls about how porn use can impact on the expectation for them in a relationship..

I think lots of women just like kinky sex and it annoys some feminists.

That's grossly oversimplifying feminist criticism of BDSM. It's legitimate criticism to ask:

• why is it usually men who hurt women in BDSM and seldom the reverse?
• do the expectations of women seen in porn undermine women's and girls' willingness to say "no I don't want that" and insist on that refusal being honoured?
• did this schoolboy fail to recognise that he was committing rape because he was so used to porn in which women cry?

We don't say "yes" or suggest activities in a vacuum. If you think about how grooming alters a victim's perceptions of what is and isn't OK, societal pressures do the same. It's women who bear the brunt of the risk during sex, kinky or otherwise, and it's not infantalising women to want to examine why women are agreeing to, and men asking for, behaviours that increase women's risk still further.