Do you think porn is going to get even more violent and men’s demand for so called ’kinky’ sex even stronger when hopefully women are getting braver to stay single?

[CantAskAnyoneElse]

Didn’t get any answer on the other board, so I’ll try here.

While women started to get more educated, be more at the work force and having little bit more say in who and when or if they date, porn was pushed more and more to the mainstream and violent sex with that.

There has to be a correlation.

And now there has been quite a few articles and studies of women choosing to remain single (they don’t usually say, but I’m guessing some women at least are also opting out of having sex with men) and single and childfree women being happiest demographic.

Do you think that sexual behaviour, weather it’s porn / men using prostitutes / so called kinky community or ’sex positivity’ movement that is constantly eroding women’s boundaries, will get even more violent and degrading towards women?

What women think of as "rough sex" isn't what pornified men think of as rough sex. We are talking about a term we've not actually bothered to define here.

50 Shades has been decried by both women's rights activists and BDSM practitioners alike: the former for its normalisation of abusiveness and the latter for its unrealistic portrayal of BDSM. Its popularity isn't the slam-dunk that you think it is.

https://theviolenceofpornography.blogspot.com is chock-full of descriptions of Pornhub vids in which women are slapped, punched, choked, throat-fucked until they vomit, their heads flushed down toilets, and otherwise abused. I think that this is what the OP was getting at here. And this is what increasing numbers of young men are thinking of when you say "rough sex". This isn't the same as liking your husband to hold your wrists.

Laura Bates says that schoolboys now think that it's normal for girls to cry during sex (Times, Mirror. The OP is right to be concerned.

The whole 50 shades mania hasn't helped. Women went crazy for it.

But the scant data we have suggests that it's mainly women who watch the more degrading stuff. They allowed a Google data scientist to run all of Pornhub's user data through Google Analytics and it indicated that the rough stuff was mainly watched by female users.

In the discussion on here posters were falling over themselves to try and say they probs weren't women but the reality is that GA is typically pretty accurate with this stuff given the amount of user data that Google harvests. Some were trying to imply that these 'women' might actually have been transwomen but I don't buy that as there are way more Pornhub users that transwomen.

It makes sense as 'being dominated' is one of the most common female fantasies in surveys. The truth doesn't always match up with what we would like it to be. I've realised this over the years.

How did Google Analytics know what sex someone is? Because, y'know, people can lie about that. I bet all the delightful young men featured in this report register as women on PornHub. And I bet there are loads of guys, who don't claim to be trans in daily life, but wank whilst imagining that they are brutalised women, and I bet they registered on Pornhub as women too.

Data analysis is only as good as the data you put in.

Being dominated doesn't have to mean violence. There are plenty of femsub couples out there who have no punishment or force dynamic at all, her submission is rooted in her desire to surrender control and decision-making to someone else at least for a while. Which makes sense, when you consider that a mother is faced with hundreds of decisions and instances of having to exert control over others (usually children) every day, from having to steer the kids though the morning routine to selecting and preparing the evening meal. This non-violent D/s would be filed under "maledom, femsub" along with women being hospitalised with rectal tearing or left covered in bruises, making it look like women enjoy being beaten up when we don't. (If she's on OnlyFans claiming to like it, what she actually likes is the money she's being sent.)

Marquis de Sade, 120 Days of Sodom, written 1785. Off the top of my head.

And you can google this yourself (since I'm not going to post links to erotica on MN), but there are a lot of 1900s erotic photographs of BDSM-related scenes!

I don’t need to Google thanks, I am familiar with 18th and 19th century pornography! If you read my post in context you will see that what I am asking for evidence of is the unsupported claim that bdsm has been around for all of human history, which is clearly rather longer than 250 years.

If you want super super early BDSM then you need to look to the Etruscans, the Romans, the ancient Greeks and the Mesopotamian empire. The Mesopotamians had a goddess who whipped (literally, not figuratively) her worshippers into a frenzy of ecstasy, if you believe the story.

People don't change much over time.

Thank you. That is interesting.

The Mesopotamians had a goddess who whipped (literally, not figuratively) her worshippers into a frenzy of ecstasy, if you believe the story.

No, they didn't. They believed in a goddess who could do that, they did not have a goddess who could do that.

The ancient Greeks, Romans, Etruscans, etc kept human beings as property, that is, slaves. Yet we don't consider slavery to be desirable nor normal. "People have done X since forever" isn't a reason to carry on doing it.

It is - and there are numerous accounts from other civilisations around the world of ritualistic flogging to induce states of ecstasy / euphoria. There are frescoes from brothels in Pompeii which appear to be advertising BDSM-related services.

It's all over the world and recorded through much of human history (Mesopotamia was 12,000 years ago) right up to the present day.

I really don't think this is a new thing. Human behaviour does not change - only our trappings and our technology does.

That's a rather petty point and you know exactly what I'm saying. Celebrants and worshippers replicate these stories, in the same way that we replicate religious stories today in our own services - Communion, anyone? There are records of ritual ceremonies and cults engaging in BDSM-adjacent behaviour from a number of places.

I don't really know what to say to that last part. Are you saying people shouldn't be allowed to consensually practice BDSM?

I'm realising that all this talk of what women fantasise about and whether the Mesopotamians flogged people for funsies is actually irrelevant to this thread and is derailing the OP's original questions about whether porn is affecting young men's minds. To which the answer is yes, it is. I linked upthread to evidence of this.

Is it a problem that it is? Yes. Women and girls are being hurt by it.

Fantasy and reality are very different things. I found that out the hard way that being consensually hit isn't the fun time it's sold as. I found out the hard way that him using me roughly for his pleasure was bad for my body. My consent and encouragement beforehand, given on the basis of what I imagined it would be like, did not prevent vaginal abrasions and cystitis. What a woman imagines that she will like and the reality are, as I have already said, two different things.

So given what I have just said, about how BDSM can harm the woman who asks for it, the real question is "What kind of man does that to a woman, and is he someone a woman should date or marry?“ Men are not slaves to women's expressed desires. Men can say "no" to a woman who asks for something that is likely to harm her, and a decent man would.

Extreme porn trains women and men to fantasise, agree to, and ask for harmful practices. Therefore extreme porn is harmful. And it is women who bear the brunt of the harm. It was me, not my exDP, who spent a week on antibiotics for cystitis.

And to all the PPs about to say "well X number of women in BDSM are OK with it", I'd like to introduce you to an important concept in statistical analysis called "survivorship bias". When evaluating whether BDSM is harmful to women, a failure to listen to those who tried it and later left the scene is a failure to listen to the women who were harmed by it. Only those who are not harmed, or who deemed the harm an acceptable trade-off for a perceived benefit (e.g. money, I mentioned upthread pro-subs on OnlyFans), stay in the scene. Those who are harmed are those who leave.

How did Google Analytics know what sex someone is? Because, y'know, people can lie about that.

Because it tracks loads of stuff like the name you sign up with on Gmail, the search terms you enter into Google search, websites you view, etc, and it cross references them all. It's looking at a lot more than just whether you click male or female when signing up. Most people have no idea how much data Google harvests about them through cookies and basically spying.

It can see the name used in account registration - not your username/email address but the one you sign up with which other people can't see.

It's been tested and found to be pretty accurate across large data sets. That's an accepted fact whether or not it supports your argument.

If somebody signs up to Gmail with the name Sarah Wilkins, frequently visits mumsnet, and regularly uses search terms like 'adult human female' do you really think they're particularly likely to be male?

It's not just using the Pornhub data. It's cross referencing it against all the user data held by Google.

@CantAskAnyoneElse
On the reverse with women reading erotic stories, surely they themselves could also want to up the level of activities they like ?

Most people have no idea how much data Google harvests about them through cookies and basically spying.

1. Blokes who look at hardcore porn tend to be a lot more aware of cyber security than most people. Ever heard of TOR, TAILS, or Privacy Badger?
2. That's still not relevant to the OP's question. The OP asked if porn is getting worse and if men are expecting ever-more violent sex. The answer is "yes". It's why I got out of the kink scene, the men in the scene are becoming dangerous to women. Even within the scene, there is increasing criticism of the levels of abuse and how abusers are enabled both online (e.g. Fetlife's shitty policies) and in real life.

I think it must also be understood that there is a difference between BDSM as it is generally practised by its adherents and BDSM as presented in mainstream, heteronormative porn, which I think is a lot of people's picture of it. Hurting and humiliating women, doing things to them they have said 'no' to is that sort of porn's image of BDSM, and yes, is one sadly that young men may absorb.

It's actually all about consent and it's not all men dominating women, usually the other way around - I have been to fetish events and anyone who does something to someone without asking if they can do it will be removed straight away - and it has been known for newbies to turn up and think this is how it works.

I don't think the problem is the existence of BDSM, but the way it is presented in mainstream porn ('If a girl says she's kinky you can just do anything to her') certainly is.

I have been to fetish events and anyone who does something to someone without asking if they can do it will be removed straight away

The problem is the ones who behave well at the play party but don't in private. It's enough of a problem that someone made a tool called FAADE to crowdsource a blacklist of abusive Fetlife users.

No offence, but I doubt even the strongest, most indisputable evidence would be enough to convince you because you've already decided your 'stance'.

I don't really look at things in that way although admittedly it's easier for me to do that as it's not an overly emotive subject for me. I'll generally try and form my view from what the evidence seems to be indicating rather than pick and choose the evidence depending on whether it supports the reality I want it to. (Not directing that at you so much as at this site in general).

Granted, the data may have reached incorrect conclusions. Maybe the guy wanted a result which made a good headline. Maybe he made an error. Anything is possible. However I'm leaning more towards the view of the data scientist than yours tbh as it's clear that you don't really understand how GA works from your question concerning people lying about their sex.

People have paid to use GA for years as a tool to analyse the demographics of their websites and it generally works very well. It's been blind tested against data and found to be accurate so I'm inclined to think it's probably accurate in this case from an objective standpoint.

Women tend to be much more inclined to have submissive fantasies than men. Yes, there is a not insignificant market for male 'sissies' but it's not mainstream like it is with women where lots of studies find 'being dominated by a man' as the most popular female fantasy.

Due to this it's most likely to be the man doing stuff to the woman, hence why women are more likely to get hurt, but IMO women aren't generally innocent flowers being coerced by men. I've seen lots of men online say they feel uncomfortable that their girlfriend wants them to be rough or hit them etc, but I rarely see the reverse.

And yes I know all about TOR etc as I used to work for a digital forensics company who had a cyber security/penetration testing subsidiary. Not as an analyst but I had to have a decent enough understanding to explain to clients what kind of analysis we could do/data we could retrieve. A lot of it was for the police - paedophiles, drug rings, serious assault, etc. I've encountered most things including a worrying number of men trying to fuck animals which is particularly hard to unsee.

Also, I don't think many people deliberately try and modify their browsing habits in an attempt to confound Google's algorithms. Most people just view what they want to view.

I can defo see transwomen being one group that might deliberately try and adopt a female persona and look at 'female' things (as was said in last thread about this) but they're not a big enough demographic to remotely influence the overall data around the many millions of Pornhub users.

Due to this it's most likely to be the man doing stuff to the woman, hence why women are more likely to get hurt,

Glad we agree there.

but IMO women aren't generally innocent flowers being coerced by men.

Sometimes women are coerced. Sometimes women fantasise about nasty stuff then find out that the reality is not what they actually wanted. Either way, she's harmed. I think I mentioned a week on antibiotics for post-coital cystitis.

I've seen lots of men online say they feel uncomfortable that their girlfriend wants them to be rough or hit them etc,

As they should feel uncomfortable.

but I rarely see the reverse.

We just end up strangled to death in "sex games gone wrong". You might also be looking in the wrong places. Try Eliot Rodgers's manifesto, some of the charmers on this thread (NSFW), the whole of the incel movement...

Also, I don't think many people deliberately try and modify their browsing habits in an attempt to confound Google's algorithms. Most people just view what they want to view.

If you use Firefox, it does a bunch of privacy enhancement out-of-the-box, including blocking Google Analytics since 2019. It's not "modifying viewing habits", it's turning off third-party cookies, blocking the big ad networks, stuff like that. So that's a whole bunch of users excluded from the dataset just because they put two fingers up to IE and Edge.

So what are you suggesting? That the millions of us who enjoy rough sex shouldn't do so because of a small minority of dodgy men? Should we also ban cars for our own safety?

How about rather than trying to police other women's sexual appetites you just refrain yourself. You're very unlikely to get strangled that way.

Re-read the OP and then tell me how that guilt-tripping little screed is relevant to it. (Clue: it isn't.) We are talking about whether trends in porn are harming young men.

At no point have I said that you, or any woman, should not engage in the as-yet-to-be-defined "rough sex". What I have talked about is how extreme porn conditions women to fantasise about, and men to expect, sexual practices that can and do (I detailed my first-hand experience of this) harm women.

Talking about the effects of extreme porn is not the same at all as telling other women what to do in bed. It's dishonest to pretend that it is.