Why are there no violent femcels?

[Laneyy]

I was watching a documentary about incels last night. It was quite scary how entitled some men feel entitled to sex of course with attractive women like they see on porn. They hammer their faces talk about killing and raping women. I think porn has a lot to answer for the rise in incels, they can't be bothered going out and talking to actual women. Just furiously wanking to women on screen..

Men and women are different it's easy for a female to get a meaningless shag which will probably be terrible but a meaningful relationship can be more difficult. I was pondering many women end up in dead end relationships ,we have a fertility time limit. Many men will waste a woman's time saying later not now until she's no longer fertile taking her chance to have biological children. Women don't then go on a murderous rampage.

What the actual….?!

You think men don’t do this to women.

Men certainly do. Yet I feel a man who 'doesn't date fat women' would be much more vilified than a woman who doesn't want to date short men. Even though height, unlike weight, can't be changed.

I have been involuntarily celibate in the past but I didn’t blame women. If someone didn’t fancy me it was usually because I was awkward/badly dressed/drunk/ugly etc. I know men who are sex obsessed, spend all their time trying to chat up women but secretly despise them.

I genuinely despair about those of us who possess a Y chromosome.

And yet we’ve got a woman above ^ who said she didn’t get any^ interest when OLD.

Yes - you will get interest from men if you’re young / slim / passably attractive.

Not so much, if you’re not. Which is my point.

On the whole women get much more attention though.

Oh yeah, testosterone might make them feel more violent but there's a strong dose of social in there when it comes to when they control it and when they let it out. Otherwise these violent blokes would be slapping their bosses.

They are in control enough to know when a violent outburst will really fuck things up for them, and when it will be outwardly condemned but tacitly understood as something angry men do.

Yeah, I don't doubt that but they're much more likely to snap and become violent than we are. I'd wager more men have punched a colleague than women have.

Passably attractive women do, yes.

Women at the same attractiveness level as incels do not.

I mean, we can keep going around in circles, but it’s not going to change that.

I think there's a difference between being an "involuntary celibate" in the sense of just not being able to find someone. And self-identifying as an "incel"/spending a lot of time online in incel forums etc. In the latter case - you've basically made the fact that you can't have sex your entire identity. Which is deeply unhealthy. I mean, its unhealthy to make any factor of your sexuality your whole identity/focus/"community" but its the most unhealthy of all.

Yes. They are the 'mad cat ladies'.

Generally speaking, men look outwards and blame the world and other people within it whereas women will look inwards and ask, "What is wrong with me?"

Women read books and articles on self improvement whereas as men get angry and seek to punish. There are involuntarily celibate people of both sexes who struggle with how they feel; struggle with their lot in life but I think the above explains why men become violent and women don't.

To be fair,
"have you tried not being depressed"
is poor advice but its way better advice than
"Join a like-minded community of deeply depressed people who hold their depressed state as the most important part of who they are, fixate on it constantly and constantly tell each other that there is no way any of them can ever escape being depressed. And angrily shuts down any counter narrative that suggests things aren't so bad. And goes for any member showing signs of escaping like crabs in a bucket. And scours the internet for signs their world view is correct. And uses that to feed their anger at the world. And frequently promotes suicide and violence against others as the only way out."

In both cases "have a shower, clean your room, get fresh air and try to interact with other people in the real world and you might feel better" might sound like a pat response but it's way better than the above.

I believe the stats show that men and women attempt suicide at similar rates but that men choose more absolute and lethal methods which is why they are more 'successful' at it.

Sorry, the above was in response to Liebeg's depression analogy.

No.

And I am fairly certain lots of women on here care about men/boys. A lot of women are mothers of boys and there are plenty of threads worrying about stuff like this (usually in places other than the feminism section). But even a hypothetical poster who gives 0 fucks about males and is committed to ignoring the "pain of incels" will be doing far less damage than incels do to each other in their angry echo chambers. Besides there is literally no way we can help with this. If we say "no, in the real world lots of women are actually happy to date shorter men and care more about personality" for example that would never be believed and "actually it is possible to be single but happy" is seen as an insult so I can be sympathetic but there's nothing I or anyone here can do. And my sympathy dries up very fast for people: Advocating rape; advocating paedophilia; trying to actively recruit vulnerable men into their misery; suggesting suicide to others. All of which are features of incel online groups

But to get back on topic - I agree with others - it's because women are less likely to be violent overall. Women and girls can still get sucked into toxic groups, particularly online, and trapped into destructive/self-defeating ways of thinking but they are more likely to turn that on themselves (or in some cases into ill thought through crusades). Men can also internalise their pain or do the crusading thing, but they are much more likely to ALSO externalise their frustration and talk about or actually commit violence.

To be fair I wouldn’t say I give zero fucks about all males. I love many men. I give zero fucks about incels. They don’t even see me as a human - why should I be bending over backwards to help them?

On some of the sites they share fun ideas for frightening girls and women, like finding one when they’re alone in a more isolated area following them at a fast pace for the excitement of seeing their fear. I don’t want to help those people, or anyone who sees them as a group they’d want to be part of. I don’t care how far they were pushed by the fact that they knew a woman who didn’t want to date short men.

@Kanaloa Oh yes, thats what I meant when I said "my sympathy dries up at that point". I just think it's ironic that on the whole you will find more posts on (predominantly female) sites like mumsnet worrying about men's mental health/suicide etc than (predominantly male) sites like Pistonhead (though of course many men do care.) And it's also unfortunate since, in general, lonely men with low self-esteem and poor interpersonal skills would benefit much more from genuine help from other men than from women. Instead they get drawn into misery-loves-company communities.

Oh, I see! Yes, I agree what needs to be happening is men taking responsibility for helping other men rather than women being told they drive men to it by not being available enough.

I wonder why they don’t, and instead turn to these types of groups? Either way, it’s not for me to be bothered about, but it’s interesting.

I will say we probably don't notice the men who go another direction because they are getting on with life not bitching/making rape threats in dark corners of the internet. I know plenty of men who are fairly nerdy and had low self-esteem as teenagers (who didn't) but came through it without developing a bitter hatred of the world (and are now happily married). There are also (sigh) people like Jordan Peterson whose pull yourself together advice does seem intended to actually help and comes from a place of expertise (even if he doesn't know what he's talking about re Ukraine etc). And some men set up anti-loneliness projects like the shed thing. Also, lots of men and women give up time to volunteer on the Samaritans helpline. So there are actually plenty of complete strangers willing to care. But if the incel types prefer to ignore all of that and instead fanaticise online about following about hurting underage girls and women maybe, just maybe they just aren't nice people.

And by the same token - where are the femcels - well, they're on forums like this posting threads like: 'OLD - what am I doing wrong?' or 'I'm so fat - help me to lose weight' or 'Feeling old and frumpy - please restyle me' or 'Please tell me your experience of getting a facelift'.

I.e. they are blaming themselves for not fitting into modes of conventional attractiveness and (rightly or wrongly) trying to change themselves, rather than blaming male attitudes.

Indeed I think justifications and explanations for incels need to take a long hard look at why there is no mirror for women.

Most notably women aren't afforded the time nor social status for such self indulgent wank tbh.

The thing is single women get exactly the same advice as the poster upthread was mocking ie join clubs, make an effort to know people, study, learn a new interest or skill, etc. Looking outwards for other types of human interaction whilst carving out things that make you happy and bring you into wider circles. It's not bad advice for someone who is lonely and wants a busier, more fulfilled life. It's only bad advice if your sole aim is having sex with someone who rejected you.
And yy lots of people spend time thinking about how young men are isolated and radicalised - from governments to campaigners, from mothers to gfs, lots of people trying to help with MH, lack of support, etc.
But I do think those approaches should be balanced with a real crackdown on online abuse and threats. The legal system needs to catch up with the internet because incels aren't just a risk to women. They're a risk to society. PREVENT needs to shift its focus although tbh I think they already have, it's just not resulted in enough high profile arrests yet.

Yes men are physically stronger but women in the USA could get access to high powered weapons and kill , ram a vehicle. No mass shooters are female or those who ram vehicles. Women also feel lonely and left on the shelf, they are abused.. Why do some men feel so entitled to kill but it doesn't cross a women's mind to commit mass murder apart from Alieen Wurnos who was an abuse victim. She was then killed by the government

It's the day three story phenomenon. Almost every terrorist attack. Nearly every mass shooting. Around day three of the reporting there will be an article saying how the perpetrator has a previous complaint against them of DV or stalking/harassment. They target women first and society doesn't take it seriously. Then they escalate and people die. And their community say 'oh if only there had been some sign'. There was a sign. It was an abused, frightened female.

Probably just because men are more violent in general. Men are vastly overrepresented in the serial killer population. And among terrorists and suicide bombers. There are definitely women out there who believe in Islamic extremist ideology but they don't commit terrorist attacks in the same numbers. So I don't think this is unique to the incel phenomenon.