Kerry Katona and surrogacy. Thoughts?

[ChocChipOwl]

I'm just watching Kerry on tv ad I eat my lunch. She has 5 children and, because her partner doesn't have any kids, they're going to go down the surrogacy route as her last pregnancy and birth was difficult

She said - and I quote - 'yeah we are going to get a surrogate because that's safer.'

Safer for who, I wonder?

Anyway, it got me thinking. I always used to be ambivalent about surrogacy but now I'm opposed to it, although I do recognise that on some occasions it may have a place.

But does it have a place for a 42 year old woman who already had 5 children and is so blasé about it all?

I truly hope so too @yorkshirepudgf as anything else is beyond awful, especially given it's a situation of your own making.

FWIW, I never said you were baby trafficking but I do think it's dangerous that people would use an example such as your own to justify surrogacy when the vast majority is the exploitation of women, often from poor backgrounds, with no consideration for the wants and needs of the baby.

You haven’t said that. There are a couple of others on this thread that have though and I will keep coming back to tell them how wrong they are. Surely you can understand why I would do that? It’s wrong to call out all surrogacy under one umbrella. Especially when in my case (like many others) everything was very carefully considered. If you knew the background I’d hope you’d be a little more understanding and see what a happy, wonderful little girl that we now have in the world.

I’ve never told you what your opinion is. You’re perfectly entitled to support baby trafficking. It’s a free country. But maybe if surrogacy was made illegal, those poor women in Africa wouldn’t be coerced into it would they? I’d no one from western countries could go over and buy a baby, they wouldn’t be coerced into surrogacy. I mean, if surrogacy is so great and empowering, why aren’t celebrities lining up to become surrogates? Why don’t they promote it as a career option in schools?

@Asdavaluesausage "Either all surrogacy is good and you support it, even when it means women are exploited, or you don’t as you know it’s abhorrent."

Have you forgotten that you posted this about ten minutes ago? Are you drunk?

You keep bringing it back to women being exploited for surrogacy reasons. There are many cases where women aren’t. In the U.K. there are laws about it and the process i went through had lots of different services involved along the way. Making it illegal wound drive more people to seek surrogacy in ways where women are being exploited.

It’s not a career option when you don’t get paid though is it? I’ve not made a career out of it! I have a very successful career.

I keep bringing it back to women being exploited because that’s what surrogacy is. Women are exploited and babies are treated as commodities. If surrogacy is so good for women, why is it almost exclusively poor women who do it? You’re the one supporting a practice which exploits women. That’s your right. Just don’t get upset when people point out what it is you’re supporting.

To repeat myself, it’s not all about you. You are not the only surrogate in the entire world. Try thinking outside yourself….

Again, completely agree @Asdavaluesausage

Some women will be exploited by surrogacy. Not all women will be exploited by surrogacy. I’m not the only one who will have had a positive experience. I’m sure there are also women who have had a negative experience.

I know I’m not the only surrogate in the entire world! 🤣🤣 Believe it or not by being a surrogate I do know other surrogates.

Im not just some random on mumsnet who has an armchair opinion on the subject. I’m very well educated and experienced in this area. I know lots more about this subject than you. Unless you can tell me otherwise? Have you studied this and done some actual research? I didn’t think so. You just have a very strong opinion.

She is a car crash ,I feel sorry for all her existing children

Have you studied this and done some actual research? I didn’t think so. You just have a very strong opinion.
so you ask me if I’ve studied it then answer yourself? Err. In actual fact you are wrong yes I have studied it, yes I have done research. Why do you think I havent? Because I disagree with you? That’s rather a bizarre conclusion to jump to.

To be fair you did get the third one right. Well done.

Links to your research and studies?

Who’s children are you feeling sorry for?

Err.. no…. You didn’t even say please. I know you’re very invested in painting surrogacy as something other than the abhorrent practice it is, and I can understand why, but you have to realise that your experience is not the experience of everyone and by you condoning the exploitation of women, you’re part of that practice

@Asdavaluesausage would you like to talk about bizarre conclusions to jump to?! On this thread you have:

• suggested that I don't think babies are human, and then confirmed it to yourself without any input from me by saying "wow";
• told me I am a human trafficker because I think @yorkshirepudgf did a wonderful selfless thing for the benefit of her sister and her family; and
• told me that as I think @yorkshirepudgf did a wonderful thing, I must support all forms of surrogacy including where the women are exploited despite the fact that I have said more than once that this is not my view.

You'd win an Olympic gold with your jumping.

Your “HTH” comments are not research. You seem to like this phrase.

Anyway vipers ✌️I’m just off to get some rest before my baby trafficking antics tomorrow.

Look forward to reading your research and studies on this subject tomorrow.

@yorkshirepudgf what a lovely thing you did for your sister and her family. Honestly cannot believe what I have read on this thread from some of the other posters!

I posted that two days ago...

The problem is the law can never be strong enough to adequately protect women and babies in surrogacy. And the creep in law is the other way round.

The risk of coercion, abuses of power and other form of control are too high even in altruistic arrangements to ever justify it.

And it lends itself to always allowing the rich to get their own way regardless of suitability.

That in itself is reason enough to ban the practice because you have a bunch of third party individuals who have duty of care responsibilities thrown into the mix. And yes surrogacy can be prevented by third parties...

So yes it is always problematic.

It would be interesting to know how many surrogacy arrangements involve women who already have their own children but are in a new relationship with a younger man and want to give him a child of his own so he won't be tempted to find a younger woman to have his own babies with . A small percentage overall no doubt but it is definitely a "thing", I've seen other cases in the news.

Anyway here is a woman who felt sorry for her brother and his wife and agreed to be surrogate mother for them. It all sounded very spur of the moment and poorly researched and ill thought through. Fancy not discussing how many embryos would be put in until you are flat on your back, legs in stirrups and the fertility Dr poised with a syringe? Needless to say she got ill with raised blood pressure as twin pregnancies are much more risky than singletons, and they were born early.

The brother's wife didn't really seem that keen on them, I think she was going to carry on working, it was very much about providing babies for her husband. They had used an egg donor and I don't think she really saw herself as their mother in the way she did with her own children. I could imagine, if they ever split up, she'd happily revert to single mother with her own children and he could go his way with his.

Hopefully KK's relationship will fizzle out before they manage to find a woman willing to rent her womb.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/apr/27/secret-diary-of-a-surrogate-mother

Two women who risk their health and wellbeing to satisfy the ego and pride of a male who wants children. They've had children previously which obviously do not live up to expectations and demands of man because they are not 'to order'. No doubt partner feels under pressure to produce the goods otherwise they have failed their partner or fear the relationship will end. And this in turn has affected others in the family.

None of this is a healthy family dynamic and it screams of a situation where coercion and emotional abuse is high risk.

Utterly appalling.

And that's altruistic surrogacy not commercial.

That's a very insightful article. You can see that as the pregnancy progresses it's clear there hasn't been much discussion around the legal and practical aspects before she was implanted with a random number of embryos (surely a number would have to be agreed beforehand as they need to be prepared by the fertility clinic?).

What struck me most was how little anyone had considered the children in their families, with one having questions about whether she would be given away and another not having any acceptance of a new baby sibling joining the family, as if he was in denial. It was very adult-centred. Very disturbing.

Finally the surrogate mother clearly did feel and behave like a mother, unable to entirely reject the natural maternal instincts you develop in pregnancy. Other surrogate mothers may say to themselves and others that this is a simple mental manoeuvre which is aided by calling themselves the oven or extreme babysitter and that they have no feelings of attachment at all for the baby they are carrying and growing from their own bones, but studies stretching all the way back to Bowlby recognise attachment theory, the mother-baby dyad and the 4th trimester and this is understood and accepted in society without much debate.

Unless of course women are just 'carriers' and babies are blank slates...?

If kerrie has a baby now she'll have been the mother of young children for her entire life to the end of middle age. Only in old age will she be free from childcare responsibilities. It's sad that she won't say to this new man "no, that chapter of my life is over".

This is one of the best and most balanced posts I have ever seen about surrogacy. I agree with you.

Whilst that particular sister to sister example does indeed sound like one of those rare examples of "acceptable" surrogacy, I still can't condone it, even between sisters.

This podcast is another example of sister to sister, another loving family and indeed the surrogate mother is surely proud of what she did for her sister and wanted to give her sister a chance to be a mother. But she paid a very high price to do this. Throughout the podcast she talks about how challenging it was, how she found it very hard, how she needed weekly counselling. How she begged for an LSCS as she didn't feel able to go through labour and give birth ....
Her fear of being handed the baby at birth speaks volumes. She knew that if she was handed that baby she would never want to give it up. She knew how a woman bonds with her baby during pregnancy and at birth. She spent nine months fighting her instincts and it was a massive challenge for her.

The consequences of the surrogacy are that she had an LSCS (having previously had two vaginal births) and immediately got pregnant again, just three months later (she said her body was craving a baby, she was even thinking about it whilst still pregnant with the surrogate baby) so she needed a second LSCS within a year - a real risk to her health, and whilst I am sure she is delighted to have a third child, that probably wasn't part of her life plan before going into the surrogacy for her sister.

I have to ask : Should a loving sister ask this of her sister who she loves so much? I'd be ashamed to put my sister through that, I'd feel so guilty. I'd be appalled if my daughters did this.

podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/at-your-cervix/id1530617581?i=1000527762344