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Feminism: chat

Kerry Katona and surrogacy. Thoughts?

243 replies

ChocChipOwl · 25/10/2022 13:28

I'm just watching Kerry on tv ad I eat my lunch. She has 5 children and, because her partner doesn't have any kids, they're going to go down the surrogacy route as her last pregnancy and birth was difficult

She said - and I quote - 'yeah we are going to get a surrogate because that's safer.'

Safer for who, I wonder?

Anyway, it got me thinking. I always used to be ambivalent about surrogacy but now I'm opposed to it, although I do recognise that on some occasions it may have a place.

But does it have a place for a 42 year old woman who already had 5 children and is so blasé about it all?

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tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 27/10/2022 11:34

Pearfacebanana · 27/10/2022 09:23

@yorkshirepudgf as previous posters have said though there is a huge difference between wanting to help your sister out of love and a stranger with no connections undertaking this for someone they don't know.
I know we say in the Uk that it is illegal to pay for surrogacy other than expenses. However the one gay couple I know that did this paid their unemployed surrogate £20k expenses. I do struggle to see how £20k expenses can be racked up for a baby you aren't keeping....

I have seen this happen too. And another gay couple who travelled to Cyprus to do it.

I wonder what would have happened to these arrangements if ante natal tests had revealed illness or possible disabilities, or if something like this was discovered after the birth.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 27/10/2022 11:37

yorkshirepudgf · 27/10/2022 09:31

I understand that and have pointed out that my comments are directed towards the posters on the thread that are saying ALL surrogacy is exploitation / baby trafficking etc.

I am more well off than my sister so didn’t need any expenses etc. I worked through the pregnancy and went back to work when I was ready to after the birth.

When we did it we had to evidence the money side of things and I’m sure expenses paid out couldn’t be more than £11k (this was in 2018).

I think what muddies the water is how do you prove which cases are altruistic and that no harm, trauma or exploitation happens along the way?

I think at the very least it certainly shouldn't be made any easier to have a child through surrogacy (looking at you, Westlife chap) just because, as hard as it is to accept, some people are unable to have a child of their own.

Shelefttheweb · 27/10/2022 13:45

There was a case on MN recently where someone offered to be a surrogate for their gay cousin. She was then upset that she hadn’t been invited to join a group family holiday with them and wanted to pull out as she felt used (she wasn’t pregnant). That was an altruistic arrangement but shows the pitfalls. I hope she absolutely did pull out. It doesn’t matter whether they gay couple were unreasonable to not regarding the holiday, just the layers of expectation and potential emotional blackmail shows that family surrogacy is not free from emotional exploitation of women. And once the offer is made, the pressure to go through with it can be huge.

Jobsagoodun1 · 27/10/2022 21:34

I had an awful experience during labour. I couldn’t imagine anyone going through that for me, even if they offered.
For those on here saying that the practise is sound in the UK then what are your opinions on people using surrogacy agencies in other countries because it is cheaper? What is the price for a human? 20k, 30k, birth injuries, a life?

OhHolyJesus · 28/10/2022 12:01

junebirthdaygirl · 25/10/2022 23:21

A family in lreland just had triplets by surrogacy in Kenya paying a vast sum. When they were about to get the babies they were asked for more and more money and cannot receive the babies until that money is paid. Its sounds just horrific and all the time this is going on three little babies are somewhere and not getting to bond with their new parents. I think the whole area is so open to corruption that its a very risky road to go down. Saying that l do understand how devastating it is not to be able to conceive. But it does worry me.

This is not strictly true. The man is in a same sex relationship but is pretending to be single as same-sex marriages are not recognised in Kenya.
The money required is due to neo-natal care being necessary as the triplet girls were born prematurely. The man buying the babies has himself said he was naive and he clearly has no idea that babies who are born early need 24/7 medical care nor did he research the costs of private medical care or the legal aspects of needing to prove a biological connection via blood tests to the babies before claiming parentage and having it recognised by a Kenya court. The mother would also need to sign away her legal rights in order for him to leave the country.
He has not got enough money to pay for the formula these babies need to sustain life as this is included in the crowdfunder he has launched with his partner (therefore blowing the secrecy around him being in a same-sex marriage. Kenya has the internet too.)

In all I have seen on this so far, the mother has been mentioned once. No one seems to know of share how she is. A multiple pregnancy no doubt took a toll on her r health and the birth was an emergency c section. I do wonder how she is and if she has a family to take care of her, and indeed what her medical costs will be and who will pay for this.

ChateauMargaux · 28/10/2022 16:45

It is a difficult topic to discuss as we do hear from posters like those on here who believe whole heartedly that they are doing the right thing for their family and cannot see that there might be negative consequences. There are studies that have shown babies show neurological changes and changes to their heart rates when separated from their mothers - even when that separation is baby lying swaddled in a cot beside the mother's bed compared with skin to skin contact. There are studies that show that babies recognise the heart beat of their own mothers, recognise and are soothed by their mother's own smell, have a preference for their own mother's breast milk.

We are reluctant to talk about this because few people have a perfect journey through life and sometimes this discussion causes harm through making people feel guilty about their actions that were done in good faith, but it may do more good than harm if fewer people took actions that are know to be 'sub optimal'.

We have all seen discussions where people say 'I did it and I am fine'.. 'My babies were definitely happier because I did X than they would have been if I were Y.' and seeing discussions about the risks or disadvantages associated with doing Y shut down because this is X shaming or reminding people that it is much worse to be shooting up heroin.

We do not know what impact separation from the biological mother (when the baby is welcomed into a loving family) has on later life, not least because there are not enough people who would want to be involved in the research, but based on the evidence we do have, we can assume there is an impact. Do we have the right to inflict what is sometimes called the 'Primal Wound' on children who have no say in the matter to heal the wound of child loss and childlessness of adults? The argument that children would prefer to be here than not is not a strong one - because we do not know what never having been born, feels like.

There are an uncountable number of factors at play on a daily basis, not least in a lifetime, and identifying the single cause of a single outcome is incredibly difficult if not impossible. However, we do know that there are impacts in the same way we do know that babies benefit from the vaginal flora of a mother and benefit from receiving colostrum even if many people born by cesarean are fine as are many people who were not breastfed.

We shy away from these conversations when faced with real life scenarios,, not because our arguments are not strong enough, or because we do not believe it when faced with 'evidence to the contrary', but out of kindness and not wanting to cause harm to people who cannot undo their actions, changing their opinion will not fix things for them.

OhHolyJesus · 28/10/2022 16:52

But back to KK as the person at the centre of this thread, not the potential child, her partner, or her existing children - though they have been mentioned and I agree that they have experienced a troubled life with their mother thus far.

KK would not meet criteria for adoption, with a history of financial worries, addiction and instability in various forms, if she wanted to have another child with another new partner via adoption she would likely be rejected, on good grounds I would suggest. An article on KK's supposed plans claims that the birth of her last daughter (the father of Dylan-Jorge died of an overdose in 2019, the little girl who is only 6, we are told clings to Ryan - a new baby who is his biological daughter could cause her trauma and a feeling of being replaced) nearly killed her, so she is aware of the risks and outsourcing this through surrogacy is the next best choice it seems. I doubt she will go through with it and I suspect she is floating the story as a way of staying in the papers but I'll pretend for a moment that she is seriously considering it.

She is 42 and may struggle to harvest a number of quality eggs necessary to create embryos (assuming she wants another child to be related to her existing children via her DNA). The fertility drugs may take their toll, the process along with possible disappointment could send her into an emotional downward spiral which isn't healthy for her or her new relationship. Ryan has shown some interest but seems unconvinced and both admit to scoping out the process rather than being seriously committed.

Having not researched it I heard her say that she wasn't sure if the surrogate mother would live with them. She does sounds completely clueless, similar to the man buying babies from Kenya, and I hope that if she does go through with it, and undoubtably films I'm the entire process for a new reality tv series, she does some serious research and can afford it. Even with 'altruistic' surrogacy in the U.K. 'expenses' can reach thousands, the most expensive in the U.K. has been publicised as 60k.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/07/01/couples-paying-60000-surrogates-despite-uk-system-reasonable/

On Twitter today I was reminded of another surrogacy story for a tv series - this was commercial surrogacy but the surrogate mother was also having a baby to 'help' but ended up suing the tv production company, the commissioning parents split up and share custody of their daughter who has not escaped unscathed. Their bitter divorce included arguments over remaining embryos.

twitter.com/slatzism/status/1585817132436115457?s=46&t=EOcKkyGrvVe-Rc6v6FDN-g

yorkshirepudgf · 28/10/2022 20:20

I really do get peoples strong feelings about this - trust me, I’ve been through the whole experience.

As someone who has been part of this experience I just wanted to try and add some value to this thread.

There are some very good opinions on here and thought out opinions.

However, there are some cranks on here too! Not ALL surrogacy is “baby trafficking” or exploitation of women.

yorkshirepudgf · 28/10/2022 20:24

Jobsagoodun1 · 27/10/2022 21:34

I had an awful experience during labour. I couldn’t imagine anyone going through that for me, even if they offered.
For those on here saying that the practise is sound in the UK then what are your opinions on people using surrogacy agencies in other countries because it is cheaper? What is the price for a human? 20k, 30k, birth injuries, a life?

I’ve have given birth to 3 kids. 2 quite traumatic including my surrogate niece. I would do it again in a heartbeat for her though. Just as I would my own children.

XanaduKira · 28/10/2022 20:34

Except it is @yorkshirepudgf You might be happy with that given you were doing it for family, but it's still using you for your body and once you start down that road, it's a very slippery slope.

This is where we are now - women are exploited the world over and people seek to justify that. It's abhorrent and horrendous and should be outlawed in all forms.

yorkshirepudgf · 28/10/2022 20:39

XanaduKira · 28/10/2022 20:34

Except it is @yorkshirepudgf You might be happy with that given you were doing it for family, but it's still using you for your body and once you start down that road, it's a very slippery slope.

This is where we are now - women are exploited the world over and people seek to justify that. It's abhorrent and horrendous and should be outlawed in all forms.

Trust me I was in no way exploited. I offered. I can use my own body to do whatever I see fit. That was my choice and my decision. I struggle to see how that would be a slippery slope for me?

XanaduKira · 28/10/2022 20:44

That's it though, you're only looking at yourself and can't see how that feeds into the bigger picture where women are exploited and it is a very slippery slope.

People refer to your type of surrogacy to justify all surrogacy and more and more entitled individuals then look to surrogacy to fulfil their own desires to have a baby. This almost always means the exploitation of women in poor financial circumstances.

yorkshirepudgf · 28/10/2022 20:50

XanaduKira · 28/10/2022 20:44

That's it though, you're only looking at yourself and can't see how that feeds into the bigger picture where women are exploited and it is a very slippery slope.

People refer to your type of surrogacy to justify all surrogacy and more and more entitled individuals then look to surrogacy to fulfil their own desires to have a baby. This almost always means the exploitation of women in poor financial circumstances.

Again, I’m not talking about ALL surrogate situations. I’ve said this so many times on this thread. I’m talking about my experience.

I’m not daft and I know there will be women who are being exploited through surrogacy around the world.

From my experience the U.K. laws and process does help people / children to be protected from this. I’m trying to balance out ‘all surrogacy is baby trafficking’ because it’s not. Done in the right and legal way it can be something amazing.

RedToothBrush · 28/10/2022 20:50

yorkshirepudgf · 28/10/2022 20:39

Trust me I was in no way exploited. I offered. I can use my own body to do whatever I see fit. That was my choice and my decision. I struggle to see how that would be a slippery slope for me?

But its all about YOU. Not others. And actually not about the child you gave birth to.

yorkshirepudgf · 28/10/2022 20:56

RedToothBrush · 28/10/2022 20:50

But its all about YOU. Not others. And actually not about the child you gave birth to.

It’s 100% was about the child I have birth to. It always was and always will be. If I was a child being born into this world I’d want my sister to be my mum. She’s amazing. My niece couldn’t be more loved.

Im not making this thread about me. I’m trying to bring balance but many of you struggle to listen to others opinions and experience.

yorkshirepudgf · 28/10/2022 20:56

RedToothBrush · 28/10/2022 20:50

But its all about YOU. Not others. And actually not about the child you gave birth to.

HTH

NalaNana · 28/10/2022 20:57

Honestly it's so patronising to tell @yorkshirepudgf that she was exploited when she has repeated several times that she offered and chose to be a surrogate. She was even in a better financial position than her sister. There are women out there who are actually being exploited. Trying to convince someone who did something selfless for a family member, that they were in some way exploited by that family, is some weird kind of reverse gaslighting.

I'm sure she's more than able to accurately describe what happened seeing as it was her lived experience and none of you even know her real name.

XanaduKira · 28/10/2022 20:57

That's also very true @RedToothBrush. No one seems to put the baby first in surrogate situations. It's all about the wants of the adults involved.

I stand by my initial comment - it's abhorrent and should be outlawed.

Asdavaluesausage · 28/10/2022 21:01

NalaNana · 28/10/2022 20:57

Honestly it's so patronising to tell @yorkshirepudgf that she was exploited when she has repeated several times that she offered and chose to be a surrogate. She was even in a better financial position than her sister. There are women out there who are actually being exploited. Trying to convince someone who did something selfless for a family member, that they were in some way exploited by that family, is some weird kind of reverse gaslighting.

I'm sure she's more than able to accurately describe what happened seeing as it was her lived experience and none of you even know her real name.

And people advocating for surrogacy will point to people like @yorkshirepudgf abd say ‘look it’s fine, she’s not being exploited, it was fine for her, it’ll be fine for you’ and use that to coerce others into it.

As PP have said, it’s looking at the whole issue, not just the ‘success stories’.

yorkshirepudgf · 28/10/2022 21:02

NalaNana · 28/10/2022 20:57

Honestly it's so patronising to tell @yorkshirepudgf that she was exploited when she has repeated several times that she offered and chose to be a surrogate. She was even in a better financial position than her sister. There are women out there who are actually being exploited. Trying to convince someone who did something selfless for a family member, that they were in some way exploited by that family, is some weird kind of reverse gaslighting.

I'm sure she's more than able to accurately describe what happened seeing as it was her lived experience and none of you even know her real name.

Thank you. You have been able to put together lots of input on this thread better than I’ve been able to do and I appreciate it.

PeaceX · 28/10/2022 21:02

Georgeskitchen · 25/10/2022 18:29

I've always had a soft spot for Kerry Katona. Yes she has made some poor life choices but I don't think she had the best start in life. She gave up her blossoming career to be a wife and a mother and then that snake of a husband dumped her for a new model.
She has obviously suffered with mental health problemsand been exploited for juicy gossip stories in the gutter press. .
She is already a mother of five and imo should concentrate on being a good mother to them, rather than thinking a baby with a new man will make him love her and stay with her.
Don't do it Kerry!!

Totally agree. Don't do it kerry

yorkshirepudgf · 28/10/2022 21:04

Asdavaluesausage · 28/10/2022 21:01

And people advocating for surrogacy will point to people like @yorkshirepudgf abd say ‘look it’s fine, she’s not being exploited, it was fine for her, it’ll be fine for you’ and use that to coerce others into it.

As PP have said, it’s looking at the whole issue, not just the ‘success stories’.

Who’s done that? You really do come across as a crank 🤣🤣

Got visions of a childless couple cornering some poor woman in a room asking them to read my opinions on this thread to have a baby for them!

Thats not how it works in the real world.

XanaduKira · 28/10/2022 21:09

You're absolutely not a quack @Asdavaluesausage

@yorkshirepudgf No one is saying that they'd look to you or this thread specifically but I assume you're being deliberately obtuse as you can't argue rationally against it.

Asdavaluesausage · 28/10/2022 21:11

You do know that in many countries surrogacy is a large industry, and the women who have the babies are coerced and exploited? You really really don’t understand why surrogacy is bad? Did you hear about the poor surrogate mothers in Ukraine, having to give birth in bomb shelters as their baby factory was being bombed? Then the babies were taken away leavin g the poor women in the middle of a war zone. You support that if you support surrogacy.

bellac11 · 28/10/2022 21:13

ChocChipOwl · 25/10/2022 13:38

@NotDonna It really really is a feminist issue - not least because it's normally men paying women to use their wombs

How do you work out that it usually men, its usually women who want a child but cant or wont carry one