Is opting out dating and having sex with men, as escape from patriarchy, silly?

[AllAloneInThisHouse]

Does it change anything?
Other than knowing that you won’t personally add to it?

[picklemewalnuts]

It removes you from some exposure, I suppose. Allows you a reset in your personal relationships.

I don't think it would overturn patriarchy, unless all women joined. Even then I suspect we'd be enslaved rather than emancipated!

[Ladyof2022]

Yes, definitely.

[AllAloneInThisHouse]

@picklemewalnuts

It removes you from some exposure, I suppose. Allows you a reset in your personal relationships.

I don't think it would overturn patriarchy, unless all women joined. Even then I suspect we'd be enslaved rather than emancipated!

But gotta start somewhere, right?

And I guess could say that conscience is clean.

At the end of the day what patriarchy wants most is to women to comply (ie. date men, marry them, have sex with them, bore children).

And I do agree if all women said no, there would be consequences.

[deydododatdodontdeydo]

I wouldn't cut my nose of to spite my face.
But if you don't see any benefit, then go for it.

[deydododatdodontdeydo]

At the end of the day what patriarchy wants most is to women to comply (ie. date men, marry them, have sex with them, bore children).

That's also what women want.

[caroleanboneparte]

Not really 1 in 3 women will have an unwanted pregnancy in her life.

[AllAloneInThisHouse]

@deydododatdodontdeydo

At the end of the day what patriarchy wants most is to women to comply (ie. date men, marry them, have sex with them, bore children).

That's also what women want.

Not all.

[AllAloneInThisHouse]

@caroleanboneparte

Not really 1 in 3 women will have an unwanted pregnancy in her life.

What do you mean?
Most of those happen with a partner.
They aren’t all because of rape, if that’s what you tried to say.

[AllAloneInThisHouse]

@deydododatdodontdeydo

I wouldn't cut my nose of to spite my face.
But if you don't see any benefit, then go for it.

Are there really benefits, really at the end of the day?

I mean, even finding a man who is pro-women is going to take years and years, or maybe never find one.
Let’s take easiest way to find man who is misogynysti: porn.
Most of the watch, according to men all of them do.
Finding a man without the first and one of the biggest deal-breaker is already like finding a needle in a haystack.

[Confusedteacher]

It seems a bit dramatic. And if you are heterosexual, depriving yourself of a loving relationship just to bring down the patriarchy does seem a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

But obviously it is your free choice and plenty of people choose to be single.

[BiologicalKitty]

South Korean women include it in their 4B movement, and it enrages men. Seems reasonable to me tho.

[AllAloneInThisHouse]

@BiologicalKitty

South Korean women include it in their 4B movement, and it enrages men. Seems reasonable to me tho.

Yes, I’ve been reading about them.
I think they are amazing (and honestly, what I feel feminism should be about - or at least be supportive of).

[AllAloneInThisHouse]

@Confusedteacher

It seems a bit dramatic. And if you are heterosexual, depriving yourself of a loving relationship just to bring down the patriarchy does seem a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

But obviously it is your free choice and plenty of people choose to be single.

But how many relationships are that loving really?

And I don’t feel like I’m depriving myself of anything, because there really isin’t anything to deprive from.

[Deutschman]

This is what the political lesbianism movement (in the 1970s?) was about, ie choosing relationships only with other women to avoid the patriarchal patterns ingrained in male-female relationships. There were also movements that promoted all-female communes.

personally I think families and relationships are the last frontier of feminism. It is easier to change the law than it is to change cultural norms around relationships, domestic work and sex. And of course for individuals, changing things often has to involve challenging men we love. You only have to look at the threads on surnames and division of domestic labour to see how hard this is. The capitalist push for women to enter the workplace at the expense of their children is also a major issue: we can either look after our own kids and value motherhood in its own right (but we have to rely on their father to support us) or we put our kids in childcare and motherhood is devalued (but we don’t need the father at all).

I have chosen to be single :)

[deydododatdodontdeydo]

@AllAloneInThisHouse

Not all.

So not all women want to date men, marry them, have sex with them and bear children by them, but all men want women to do that?
The reality is some men want that and some women want that, but others don't.
I would estimate that more women want those things than don't, so it doesn't seem to be a very woman friendly thing to do to deny women what they want.

[Precipice]

I'm a lesbian, so I'm automatically opted out, as it were.

I think it's misleading to construe it as an escape from patriarchy, because even if you're not engaging sexually with men, you're still living in a society that advantages men and in which women are presumed to be in or open to close relations with men (sexual/romantic). But it's not 'silly' to choose not to date or sleep with men, even if you're a heterosexual woman.

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

No, because patriarchy still exists in the public sphere where men in the workplace expect women to do the grunt work so they can get ahead, treat women like inferiors and get paid more. Plus, women still cannot access streets, paths, public transport etc. without being subject to harassment and violence.

Having said this, I refuse to carer, cook and clean for men in the private sphere.

[AllAloneInThisHouse]

Okey, so it will not be perfect escape to freedom.

But surely it has to mean something to not participate?

Or is it really easier to just fall in line and women just keep telling themselves their Nigel and Nigel jr are one of to good one’s, or does that even actually matter at that point?

[deydododatdodontdeydo]

Why is getting your own way and getting what you want out of life "falling into line"?
Don't women have autonomy any more?

[ShaneTwane]

This is absolutely ridiculous. Surely feminism is about equality of the sexes?

Start by abolishing the gender pay gap.
Start by convicting rapists with harsher punishments.
Start by making misogyny a hate crime and punishing it accordingly.
Start by teaching your sons about periods and respecting women as equals.

Women want sex and marriage and children. Not all but plenty. If women stopped having relationships with men what would that help? Would they stop raping us? Stop sexually harassing us in the streets? Stop getting paid more than us? No is the answer here.

[BiologicalKitty]

I don't think the ideas are mutually exclusive! Women don't depend on men for property ownership, money, or procreation anymore. That's a good thing. The more women who allow men into their lives as an option rather than see relationships with men as a defining feature of their womanhood would only ever be a good thing.

Your argument, @ShaneTwane ,skates perilously close to the idea that women are responsible for "taming" men.

If they chose to respond to such boundaries with violence, that is not the women's fault.

[Redqueenheart]

''@deydododatdodontdeydo
At the end of the day what patriarchy wants most is to women to comply (ie. date men, marry them, have sex with them, bore children).

That's also what women want.''

Generalise much? Some women choose not to have children and some also choose to date other women. Also not everyone is pro-marriage. You don't speak on behalf of all women....

Back to the original post: you are free to choose your own path rather than follow that patriarchal template.

I decided not to date anymore after more than a few bad experiences and realised it just was not worth it. As you get older you realise there are not that many good men around.

I must say I find it really liberating. No need to put up with yet another fragile male ego, selfish and all too often abusive behaviour and general immaturity or the influence of porn.

I also like that fact that I don't need to be concerned about whether a man finds me attractive or not. I just enjoy my life without needing anybody else's validation and see no reason for that to change.

[Deutschman]

Feminism is about liberating women from the patriarchy. I think it’s a fair point that heterosexual relationships can be a barrier to this. I out of all the couples I know, I can only think of one that I consider completely equal.

[ShaneTwane]

Your argument, @ShaneTwane ,skates perilously close to the idea that women are responsible for "taming" men.

It really doesnt.

I genuinely dont understand what you think refusing to shag men is going to do in terms of female liberation. The answer is absolutely nothing.

[BiologicalKitty]

You don't think there's an unequal situation that could exist when a female and male have sex? 🤔