Is opting out dating and having sex with men, as escape from patriarchy, silly?

[AllAloneInThisHouse]

Does it change anything?
Other than knowing that you won’t personally add to it?

Don't you think it's generalising to say that men want those things?
I think you'll find more women want them than don't.
Do you want a tiny minority of women to dictate what the majority can do?

@deydododatdodontdeydo

I am talking about women.

You are choosing to misinterpret my post. It is not about ''dictating anything'', there is nothing in my post that states that women should not want kids, marriage or same sex relationships.

It is simply pointed out that many women make different choices from the ones you listed.

I think you should take time to read and understand people's posts before replying.

In the op she says men want these things (generalising) and women don't want them (again, generalising).
My opinion is that many women do want these things.
It's something that pops up on this board from time to time that it's men that want kids, not women and, while that might be true in some cases, it's not representative of most women.

Many women want a fantasy man, not what actually exists. Men usually put on an act in the beginning of a relationship to make her think she'll get what she wants - love, romance, intimacy, etc.
I think most women should stop trying to get into relationships with men because most men aren't relationship material ---The reason women divorce men at such a high rate. Divorce is horrible to go through, especially with kids, but that's how unbearable it was for them.

I've found a very way to stop being lured in by attractive single men, which is usually why I wind up dating after I said I wouldn't (and paying for it). All I have to do is spend a few moments remembering how women get degraded in porn and the deviant things that turn men on. Works every time.

I think women are increasingly finding it difficult to find a loving relationship though.

I know a few men who are struggling too but a short conversation with them often reveals why that is...

Sort of like the MGTOW movement, but for women? They don't seem very content...

"At the end of the day what patriarchy wants most is to women to comply (ie. date men, marry them, have sex with them, bore children).

I think your view of "patriarchy" is a bit simplistic.

Judging by many posts on Mumsnet, many many men will happily have sex with women, would happily do so without dating, absolutely don't want to marry them, aren't keen on kids and apparently if they have any don't care about them/see them/avoid paying for kids that result through various means including doctored self employment figures etc. Perhaps they see this as not supporting the matriarchy...

Yeah but MGTOW is fuelled by a simmering inferno of hate which I don’t think is the case here.

To answer your OP, no I don’t think it’s silly. It’s a decision you make for yourself. The ultimate boundary. Zero silliness in my opinion. Quite the opposite.

MGTOW is just a group of misogynistic men.
If you go on reddit, you’ll see some of them are actually married.
Also, they don’t opt out women, they want to use women for sex.

So, I didn’t mean anything like MGTOW.

I believe that MGTOW distinguish themselves from other misogynistic nutgroups by claiming to see separatism as the highest form of their 'path'. I just checked- at Level 3 they reject even sexual activity with women.

Of course, they still spend most of their time bleating about women's perceived evils and are very keen to tell everyone about why they are 'going their own way.'

Yeh, make a list of what you cannot do as a single woman. I don't try to date, no expectation of meeting somebody. It feels freeing and peaceful
Men opt out of older women so it's a two way street but I accept this so completely. I wasted so much time as a younger woman.

There is a WGTOW movement, its nothing like MGTOW - for men who claim to be going their own way, they seem to be fixated on women and controlling us.

WGTOW is more like 'disengage so you can work on yourself and your life'.
There's also FDS; female dating strategy.

It would seem a sane response, but maybe that is my experiences over the last few years talking. I guess my question is this: what are women compromising, and what are they getting from relationships with Men?

Logic would seem to dictate that if it costs more than it rewards it would be wise to eschew relationships. I only ever dipped my toe into MGTOW briefly and it seemed utterly batshit as it still seems to define itself around what men perceive women to be. Feminism at least defines itself around women themselves, that can’t help but produce a better outcome.

I think a spectacular flaw in patriarchy is that it encourages us men to be far more dependant upon women than perhaps is the case the other way around. That’s why we try to control you through force, manipulation and coercion.

It's funny how you expect to find a man that is 'prowomen' yet you don't sound 'promen'. Having a decent relationship is very much a two way street. You both put in 100%. I have been with my husband for 14 years and we have a one year old that is incredible! I couldn't be happier and that's down to BOTH of us putting in the work.

To be honest you sound like you hate men. My DH doesn't watch porn, I am 100% certain about this, we have a loving relationship. Maybe you read too many mumsnet threads? There are lovely men out there.

Are you scared?

I think we're talking about society level patriarchy, not about individuals. The pressure to get married and have children comes from society and societal norms. On an individual basis people (men and women) have all kinds of different preferences about how they live their lives. So it doesn't make sense to me to make a rule of it because by chance you might meet a loving wonderful man who is none of the things that you have mentioned (they do exist). But I am on board with not going out of our way to find a relationship, not measuring our worth on where we are on the 'relationship escalator'. I always think it's healthier and more effective to be 'for' things rather than against them. Ie be 'for' developing financial independence, paddling your own canoe, living a child-free life.. if you act always in opposition then you will always be enslaved by patriarchy, even if it's only psychologically.

I don’t necessarily read this discussion as hating men per se, more as hating what men do. Which empirically does seem to be a problem.

I can see the effects of patriarchy out in the wider world, but I think I’m quite fortunate in that I have been surrounded by more lovely men than horrible men in my life. therefore, I’ve been quite cushioned from it.

My late dad cared greatly about my education and my rights. He ensured I had every opportunity to do whatever I wanted in life. My brothers are both gentle, caring souls. Through my job, I know lots of men who work hands on with children, caring greatly for them and promoting equality. I feel very valued and competent in my role, despite being surrounded by male colleagues.

I’m also married to a kind and decent man. He was raised by a strong feminist woman. We both benefit greatly from the partnership and sharing of our resources and skills. We have chosen not to have children…perhaps that has some bearing on our marriage set up.

I do understand that I’ve been fortunate, my best friend has had a very raw deal in life, and has been treated very badly by men, both in her relationships and her workplace. I imagine if I were in her shoes, I’d have a very poor perception of men.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with choosing to be single, but I’m not sure it will end the patriarchy. Rather, education, changing mindsets and ingrained problems is surely the way forward.

It’s always so interesting worrisome to see that if a woman acknowledge there are problematic men out there, then se must hate women.
Even on feminist site.

Nothing I’ve written is something that could be taken as hating men.

I’m just being realistic.

@Redqueenheart I came on to say exactly what you said so will repeat it here:

I decided not to date anymore after more than a few bad experiences and realised it just was not worth it. As you get older you realise there are not that many good men around.

I must say I find it really liberating. No need to put up with yet another fragile male ego, selfish and all too often abusive behaviour and general immaturity or the influence of porn.

I also like that fact that I don't need to be concerned about whether a man finds me attractive or not. I just enjoy my life without needing anybody else's validation and see no reason for that to change.

Tbh I don't think most women want a 'pro woman' man in the manner feminists mean it. Statistically, most women believe in equality but don't identify as feminists.

I think most of us want a decent non-misogynistic guy, but wanting a guy who knows about all the patriarchy stuff means you'll probably be looking for a very long time unless you go for one of those woke beardy twats who usually aren't as feminist as they claim (e.g. telling you that you need to let crossdressers into women's changing rooms etc).

a heterosexual woman who chooses not to partner simply to avoid the patriarchy is depriving herself of the joy in life that can come from finding the person who you trust more than anyone in the world. it is hard to find, but not impossible.

I think a better approach is for heterosexual women to be much more selective with dating, sexual encounters, and partnering.

Exactly.

Despite the fact that the majority of violent individuals/rapists/etc are male, the majority of men aren't like this, and for many women the person they trust most in the world is their male partner.

There are far more women in the world who trust a man as their soul mate than there are who rely on the sisterhood.

Trying to find a male soul mate cuased me nothing but pain and feelings of inadequacy, rejection, confusion, anger.
Opting out has brought me far more equilibrium and joy.

I've forgotten all the individuals who treated me like a disposable item or one of many sweets in the shop. No one individual scarred me but the collection of those experiences has left me in no doubt that the JOY in life comes when you're not looking.

Don't peddle that notion that women must keep looking and must keep trying to meet somebody forever or they're at risk of missing out on something ''joyful''.

That is pervasive and causes women so much upset.

Just give up and focus on everything else. then the joy in life will come.

Omg I'd be a basket case if I'd subjected myself to another decade of bullshit from OLDsters on line.