Is opting out dating and having sex with men, as escape from patriarchy, silly?

[AllAloneInThisHouse]

Does it change anything?
Other than knowing that you won’t personally add to it?

@Ponderingwindow & @Galaktoboureko

I do agree women learning to have high standards and rise a bar for a good man/partner.
But that makes it just so much more difficult, how many women are actually willing to do that, and wait, or except that they may never find that man?
It’s going to be a long wait.

Let’s take the easiest and quickest way to weed out men who aren’t going to be equal, pro-women, suitable, whatever word you want to use: porn.
That alone drops most men out of potential partners. Unless you just happen to luck out, it could take years to find one.
How many women are willing to find that guy, with this one obvious deal-breaker?

You both said, ”the person woman trust the most” (that should be yourself , not other people, but I digress). How could any woman trust a man who jerks off to women being abused and degraded?

I think lot of women just built an idea of their partner in their heads and run with it, tbh.

Trying to find a male soul mate cuased me nothing but pain and feelings of inadequacy, rejection, confusion, anger.
Opting out has brought me far more equilibrium and joy.

Honestly same @J0y, I never believed in soulmates, but I was trying to find a partner to share and build a life with.
For some time I thought that that was something I wanted, but I learned that it was something society told me I should want, that I’m less than if I don’t have a man etc.

And realizing that brought peace to my life and in my mind.
A lot of commets used words like deprive and fully trust, and none of it resonates with me.
I’ve been finding fulfillment in taking responsibility of my own happiness, not anchoring it to some random man, hoping the best (that tends not to happen or leas to anything).

It took a lot of growing and learning and letting go of old ideas that we are feeded since birth, to get here. But it has been amazing to not tie my self worth to a man.

And that if so freeing and liberating - I woouldn’t never learn this, had I just kept trying to fit round peg into a square hole (that’s what dating men always felt like to me).
Even if you ever be with one man only, that’s it. You know exactly what relationships with a man has to offer.

I've been single for years. I just don't find that men add anything to my life. I earn my own money and have my own home, pension etc, I raised my DS on my own.
I don't need a man emotionally I'm quite happy with my friends and relatives.
I have a social life that doesn't require a man in it.
Whenever I've dated a man in the past I have immediately been consigned to being partner number 2 even if I am more successful than them.
They expect us to do what they want us to do at the weekend and holidays, they expect me to clean, cook and pick their pants up off the floor.
I can't see the point tbh. Why would I make myself into a 2nd class maid of all work when I am a successful independent woman?
They have a sense of arrogance and superiority even if they are nobodies that is absolutely breathtaking.

Absolutely could not agree more re: porn. And if a woman is ever asked, "In whom do you place your trust". The answer should always be, "Myself".

I can see how it feels liberating.

But honestly, I felt liberated when I felt completely happy with being single. I don’t feel like I have to act a certain way to attract man. I have a dp and don’t feel like I have act a certain way to keep him. I very much feel that I love him, but if he ups and leaves and will be fine (financially and emotionally). I would miss him for a bit but be absolutely ok on my own. My attitude is your either like who I am or I don’t. If it’s not for you, that’s absolutely fine.

I don’t only mix with men that I have sex with, either. And wouldn’t be willing to stall those relationships to stick it to the patriarchy and I impact them patriarchy more by having these relationships. Myself and Dad discuss these things all the time, which have really great outcomes as dad is eager to learn what life is like for generation below him. He also has always tried to understand the work from my point of view and my kids points of view. I have a dd and ds who I actively conversations with around sexism all the time.

I work in a male dominated industry. I am at the top of my company and actively working with men and women to change the culture.

I think my relationship with dp is where I make the least amount of impact on the world. I think ending it would make no impact at all. I would rather be actively trying to impact change rather than trying to impact change passively.

again, I can see how it would be freeing. I can see what you are trying to do. But in my life it would create very little impact. I have that freedom and I am impacting change.

I agree with much of this and think that, as with many things, the answer is somewhere in the middle. It's important to know what you want and be a good judge of character. Too many women seem to be fooled by guys who most of us can tell are total knobheads from a mile away, which I can only put down to desperation, low standards, or thinking they can change them/wilful naivety.

But I think not trying at all is quite likely to lead to eternal spinsterhood.

I think it's liberating to opt out of crappy dating and poor quality relationships, if that's all that's on offer. OLD is such a huge timesuck and it's oppressive to spend your life constantly waiting and hoping for something that may never happen.

I agree. I've had good results with OLD in the past but I know what I want and won't overlook obvious red flags. No point wasting time spending ages talking and then being disappointed as so many women seem to do from the threads on here. Best to just go for a drink or coffee and you can usually get a pretty good picture within the first 20 mins.

Unless you have a massive social group or the kind of job/lifestyle where you meet loads of people then OLD is still the best option IME. Starting a hobby with the hope of meeting somebody or going to bars and standing around is just too much of a time drain. I just went on a couple of dates a week and met my partner after a couple of months of doing it on and off. Like me, he was just a normal 30something year old who struggled to meet people as most of his friends were already settled. He'd also been pretty sceptical like me but decided to give OLD a go.

@Bestcatmum - absolutely. It is the slide to woman as a domestic assistant, and why would a woman of independent means want to pick that up?

Absolutely not. That is not fun, life enhancing, amusing, sexy or protective. It is boring, pedestrian and hard work.

You've obviously had bad experiences with men then because plenty aren't like that. You can usually spot these types miles away.

IME there are just as many entitled women who expect men to effectively pay for the privilege of being with them and jump through hoops. Obv they're not particularly feminist women but the majority of women nowadays aren't.

The majority of women don't identify with the label of feminist. What people tend to conveniently leave off is that the majority of women agree with the core principles and aims of feminism, when they are put to them individually.

I'm sorry you've not come across any decent men because there are loads of them.

Yes, this is true to an extent. The last study I read (by a feminist charity) found that despite only 7% of women being happy to identify as 'feminist', 75% believed in equality.

However, there are other factors such as the fact that feminism does seemingly attract a fair few women who are sexist, which is a commonly given reason for the rejection of the term in a few studies I've read. It's like how men's rights looks at areas like male suicide and homelessness, which most men would agree are worthwhile causes, yet the overall view of 'MRAs' is that they're often misogynists.

Different sides of the same coin I suppose you could sometimes say.

No one says there are no problematic men.

You've said multiple times on the thread that there is not much in relationships with men for women because it is so difficult to find a nice man.

That's not the same thing.

That really depends what you think those things are.

If it means not having relationships with men I suspect you'd find most were not so keen.

I don't get this comment. Usually women who talk about men being problematic are called man haters, not woman haters. Not saying I agree, but that's the way it usually seems to go.

I really thought we were past with the
’spinster’ crap.
It’s so misogynistic.
And on a feminist site no less.
Surely no one these days think that being single (for life or not) is less than or sad?

I don’t think threatening women about singlehood is progressive.

Thank you for your condescendence @LimpBiskit.

And excuse me if I don’t trust a random internet stranger about the state of men.
I have no idea what standards you have for men, so I’m not going to trust you on this.

Luckily we live in an age where anyone (and importantly women) can be single without any kind of negative impact, at least in the UK.
OK, you might get some pressure from parents to get married or have kids, but men get those pressures too. And if you were to live in other areas of the world or even the UK a couple of hundred years ago you would have little choice but to seek marriage for many reasons if you were a woman.
Everyone needs to find their own path, and if opting out of dating and sex makes you happy then good luck to you.
Just accept the fact that most women won't want to join you.

But I think not trying at all is quite likely to lead to eternal spinsterhood.

Really? Some nicely embedded misogyny here.

I have literally never had a good and equal relationship with a man ever. I've given up. I just don't care any more.

Meh, spinsterhood/bachelorhood. It's the same thing to me and for the majority of people isn't as fulfilling as being genuinely in love with somebody IME. I feel this is kind of supported by the fact that most women on here who claim to choose the single life seem to be doing so due to previous negative experiences. It's a bit like choosing to be unemployed because your last boss was an arse.

Nothing misogynistic about it as it applied to both sexes. I don't know what the mumsnet meaning of a spinster is but for me it's just an eternally single woman. And this is hardly a feminist website. It's actually primarily focused on women who didn't choose to single and had kids. Most women aren't feminist nowadays anyway so logically one would assume most mumsnetters aren't.

Are you sure you haven't just resigned yourself to being bitter? You don't exactly seem like a bundle of joy/optimism. I don't mean that nastily.

@Galaktoboureko , are you even a feminist?
Everything you write is just so oit of it.
I’m really lost with what you’re saying.

Spinsterhood is an insult, trying to scare women into a relationship.

Bachelorhood is an admiration to men who’s chosen to be free.

Connotation couldn’t be more different.

Anyways, I would have thought femisnist corner would have been one place to dismantling hetero patriarchy.

Why is everywhere on MN someone (are all those comments you?) saying most women aren’t feminist? Is that some kind of divide and rule thing you’re playing?

Galaktoboureko, are you even afeminist?

No, but I believe in equality and equal rights. Before you do the old "you're a feminist but just don't know it" I think a lot of feminism is negative, out of touch, and I don't really believe in the patriarchy like most feminists do.

Why is everywhere on MN (are all those comments you?) saying most women aren’t feminist? Is that some kind of divide and rule thing you’re playing?

Because it's true. Last study I read was by Fawcett Society (a feminist charity) and found 75% of women believed in equality but only 7% identified as feminist. I've been told that other recent studies have found it closer to 20% in young women but I've not read them. Even in Sweden it's only 40% from last study I read.