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Feminism: chat

Is opting out dating and having sex with men, as escape from patriarchy, silly?

121 replies

AllAloneInThisHouse · 21/09/2022 07:41

Does it change anything?
Other than knowing that you won’t personally add to it?

OP posts:
Galaktoboureko · 10/10/2022 13:50

I don't want to derail the thread and I respect people having their own opinion (and expect the same back). I just don't like how a lot of feminists try and speak on behalf of women when they're in a minority.

RoseslnTheHospital · 10/10/2022 13:57

I don't know what the mumsnet meaning of a spinster is but for me it's just an eternally single woman. And this is hardly a feminist website. It's actually primarily focused on women who didn't choose to single and had kids. Most women aren't feminist nowadays anyway so logically one would assume most mumsnetters aren't.

@Galaktoboureko

Pretty much any definition of "spinster" from any reputable source explains that it is dated and/or derogatory.

Choosing to be in a relationship and have children does not mean you cannot be a feminist.

As already addressed, most women don't identify with the label of "feminist" but the large majority agree with the core aims and principles of feminism when they are asked about them individually. So logically one would assume that most mumsnetters agree with the core aims and principles of feminism.

(www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/Handlers/Download.ashx?IDMF=a9a69875-749a-4482-9a8b-5bffaafe3ee7)

Here is some research from 2019 where their results are that 41% of UK women would agree with the statement "I define myself as a feminist".

www.kcl.ac.uk/giwl/research/global-attitudes-towards-gender-equality

YouAreNotBatman · 10/10/2022 14:31

@Galaktoboureko I don’t care if you are one or not per se.

I’ve struggled with the label myself.
I’ve found many femisnist (places at least) pander to men too much and I don’t know what the point is to feminist if you do that.

Liberal feminism is a joke and more radical one’s are on the other hand highly conventional.
I haven’t found a balanced place where men’s feelings isin’t the primary concern. I believe we should learn to decenter men.

Personally I see myself as pro-women and that women have human worth just as men do, even if they don’t fall in line and want make own choices in their life.

Galaktoboureko · 10/10/2022 14:40

I could get behind 'pro women' but really I just dislike pigeonholing everything. I'd rather improve society as a whole than do the whole "I'm a women, why shouldn't I prioritise women" thing.

Galaktoboureko · 10/10/2022 14:46

Generally speaking, I find most ideologies focusing on a particular characteristic to be a bit hostile. People who are very 'pro Britain', 'pro white', 'pro traditionalist', 'pro masculinist', 'pro Conservative', etc. I defo see this in a fair few feminists. It's not on how they define themselves but rather how they act that I usually judge them.

YouAreNotBatman · 10/10/2022 15:07

Well, you’ve definitely have met very different kinds of feminist than I have, that’s for sure.

Galaktoboureko · 10/10/2022 15:34

YouAreNotBatman · 10/10/2022 15:07

Well, you’ve definitely have met very different kinds of feminist than I have, that’s for sure.

You must've encountered the type who talk about "the menz" and say things like how they don't feel sorry for xyz happening to men because men have had the upper hand for all eternity etc?

I don't really get on with these views as they only work at a class level and not at an individual level. For example, an 18yo male hasn't likely benefitted from higher earnings and won't statistically until he's almost 40 as we earn slightly more until then, so if we take the view that it's fair for him to earn less 'because men have had the upper hand for ages' then he just gets screwed over without having reaped any of the benefits of the men that came before. Which is the complete opposite of equality and something we're supposed to be fighting against.

I probably didn't explain that analogy very well but I guess my point is that I don't like these mass generalisations.

And stuff like how all men are responsible by proxy for male violence etc. It's a fair enough view that men should call out poor behaviour by others (as long as it doesn't risk their safety) but then I see famous feminists say bonkers things like "all heterosexual sex is rape" and not a single feminist wants to say a peep about it, so it just kind of seems a bit hypocritical.

I'm not meaning to assassinate feminism as there is also lots of good, but there's lots of toxicity too which is why I'd rather focus on individual issues and support them away from the cliquey aspect.

RoseslnTheHospital · 10/10/2022 16:12

@Galaktoboureko

Just wanted to say that it isn't the case that an 18 year old man will earn less than women until he's 40. Not to mention that no feminist wants women to out-earn men, rather just that women don't under-earn compared to men for reasons that are solely to do with their sex and associated gendered expectations.

Also, regarding your comment that 'famous feminists say bonkers things like "all heterosexual sex is rape" and not a single feminist wants to say a peep about it, so it just kind of seems a bit hypocritical.' I guess you are referring to Andrea Dworkin and her book Intercourse from 1987, where she writes that "Violation is a synonym for intercourse." which is often taken to mean that all PIV sex is rape. However she herself frequently and clearly explained the total misinterpretation of what she said, stating that "What I think is that sex must not put women in a subordinate position. It must be reciprocal and not an act of aggression from a man looking only to satisfy himself. That's my point." It's about a discussion around the culture and social attitudes to sex prior to her writing the book, where sexuality was often portrayed as male-centric and about dominance/possession/aggression. She was arguing that sex isn't essentially or only that way, and that sex can be equal and truly consensual without being lesser or lacking.

That comment, it's misunderstanding, and what it means is often discussed by feminists. On this forum, well, on the original version of this forum, many times. There must be hundreds of feminist essays, books, research, etc etc which considers heterosexual sex in the context of being male-centric, about power imbalance, aggression, possession etc etc. I don't understand how anyone could say that "not a single feminist wants to say a peep about it".

deydododatdodontdeydo · 10/10/2022 16:20

@RoseslnTheHospital I assumed @Galaktoboureko was referring to this article and ones like it:
witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

RoseslnTheHospital · 10/10/2022 16:40

Why that specific article - is it by a famous feminist?

Also, it proves my point, in the comments below there is plenty of discussion about the idea. About issues around consent, power imbalance, risk imbalance and all the rest. There's no unanimity about this. One feminist's thoughts aren't by default an agreed manifesto item for all feminists, or in this case all radical feminists.

Galaktoboureko · 10/10/2022 16:54

deydododatdodontdeydo · 10/10/2022 16:20

@RoseslnTheHospital I assumed @Galaktoboureko was referring to this article and ones like it:
witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

I'm pretty sure the quote wasn't a Dworkin one as it wasn't paraphrased. It was pretty much as I wrote it. But I do agree that many quotes are taken out of context, like the Dworkin (I think) one about wanting to see a mean beat to a bloody pulp with apple in mouth (which was apparently actually a quote from a character in her book).

Here in the UK women defo earn slightly more up until 35-40 (according to which study you read). It's been that way for about 15 years.

Unmitigated · 10/10/2022 17:02

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Galaktoboureko · 10/10/2022 17:05

deydododatdodontdeydo · 10/10/2022 16:20

@RoseslnTheHospital I assumed @Galaktoboureko was referring to this article and ones like it:
witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

I think I've read that before a while back. It's reasonably well known (and utterly bonkers).

RoseslnTheHospital · 10/10/2022 17:15

@Galaktoboureko Could you give a link or reference for the study that you've read that explains the earnings claim, thanks. The ONS data doesn't show this at all.

Farmageddon · 10/10/2022 17:26

Galaktoboureko · 10/10/2022 12:33

Meh, spinsterhood/bachelorhood. It's the same thing to me and for the majority of people isn't as fulfilling as being genuinely in love with somebody IME. I feel this is kind of supported by the fact that most women on here who claim to choose the single life seem to be doing so due to previous negative experiences. It's a bit like choosing to be unemployed because your last boss was an arse.

Nothing misogynistic about it as it applied to both sexes. I don't know what the mumsnet meaning of a spinster is but for me it's just an eternally single woman. And this is hardly a feminist website. It's actually primarily focused on women who didn't choose to single and had kids. Most women aren't feminist nowadays anyway so logically one would assume most mumsnetters aren't.

Eh, no sorry this is bullshit.
The connotations of the terms 'spinster' and 'bachelor' are completely different in wider society, maybe not as much as they were historically but still prevalent.
One is lonely, sad, pathetic, 'on the shelf', the implication being she has failed in her primary objective of bagging a man.
While the other is free, easy, having fun, being a lad, free of a ball and chain etc.
One is very much negative and the other is very positive.

The fact that you ignore this is ridiculous.

LexMitior · 10/10/2022 17:28

Spinster is a nasty word - mostly used by women with husbands. They want you to know the difference.

AllAloneInThisHouse · 10/10/2022 17:47

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I know you tried really, really hard to insult me, but all I really got from your post is that not wasting time with men is a best thing woman can do.
So, thanks.

OP posts:
YetAnotherSpartacus · 10/10/2022 20:45

Spinster is a nasty word - mostly used by women with husbands. They want you to know the difference

Hell, yeah. Because no matter how miserable they are, no matter how much they have to pander to an egotistical lazy man-child who does zero housework and whose feelings and entitlements come first (in some cases) they are the winners because they ‘have a man’ and better still, a ring! 😅

J0y · 10/10/2022 21:11

I feel sorry for those sad cases.
My mother is one.
Pitied me.
When I was on my way back from visiting a school friend in Spain, I stayed one night in a parador in lorca and two nights in alicante. She kept saying "but why, you'll be on your own".
I felt sorry for her. It's like she thinks I'm half a person and I think she's half a person, for different reasons we are both pitying each other.

Galaktoboureko · 10/10/2022 21:50

RoseslnTheHospital · 10/10/2022 17:15

@Galaktoboureko Could you give a link or reference for the study that you've read that explains the earnings claim, thanks. The ONS data doesn't show this at all.

I've googled it as it was ages ago I read it and the studies were actually using ONS data. However, it was young childless women that earned more, which supports my view that it's possibly motherhood which is the main obstacle rather than just men flat out being paid more - women going part time, becoming more focused on family than work, and of course discrimination in favour of candidates with no dependents.

And of course women who choose the easy life once they have a high earning husband who is happy to be the breadwinner (mumsnet hates these women but they seem to exist in large numbers).

Data provided by the Office for National Statistics shows an eye-opening trend. Women are paid more than men until they reach their 40s, according to an official assessment of the gender pay gap. It found that the difference between wage levels for male and female employees leans in favour of women rather than men among workers in their 20s and 30s.

Twenty-something women have earned more than men in the same age group for the past decade. Now, in a further sign that the gender pay gap is retreating, the figures show that for the first time women in their 30s are also paid more than their male contemporaries. Men only become better paid when they reach middle age.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3214854/amp/Pay-gap-Women-earn-men-till-40s-20-woman-paid-men-age-group-decade.html

Women now earn more than men until they turn 35, when the tables are turned, new figures show. Official data found full-time women earned more than their male colleagues in their 20s and early 30s.

But at the age of 35, the trend is reversed and men then earn more money for the rest of their working life. The gender pay gap then widens in their 40s, 50s, and 60s, according to the Office for National Statistics.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2957178/amp/Women-earn-men-35-gender-pay-gap-reverses-end-earning-35-less.html

Women in their 20s have reversed the gender pay gap, but their earning power is still overtaken by men later in life. Figures compiled by the Press Association have shown that between the ages of 22 and 29, a woman will typically earn £1,111 more per annum than her male counterparts."

Using data from the Office for National Statistics (ONS), PA analysed the comparative earnings of men and women. While younger women in their 20s came out top in the earning stakes, the story was vastly different for workers in their 30s.

amp.theguardian.com/money/2015/aug/29/women-in-20s-earn-more-men-same-age-study-finds

According to a new analysis of 2,000 communities by a market research company, in 147 out of 150 of the biggest cities in the U.S., the median full-time salaries of young women are 8% higher than those of the guys in their peer group. In two cities, Atlanta and Memphis, those women are making about 20% more.

This squares with earlier research from Queens College, New York, that had suggested that this was happening in major metropolises. But the new study suggests that the gap is bigger than previously thought, with young women in New York City, Los Angeles and San Diego making 17%, 12% and 15% more than their male peers, respectively. And it also holds true even in reasonably small areas like the Raleigh-Durham region and Charlotte in North Carolina (both 14% more), and Jacksonville, Fla. (6%).

Here's the slightly deflating caveat: this reverse gender gap, as it's known, applies only to unmarried, childless women under 30 who live in cities. The rest of working women — even those of the same age, but who are married or don't live in a major metropolitan area — are still on the less scenic side of the wage divide.

The figures come from James Chung of Reach Advisors, who has spent more than a year analyzing data from the Census Bureau's American Community Survey.

content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.html

Galaktoboureko · 10/10/2022 21:55

Googling and reading these was actually quite an eye opener tbh. I knew I'd read that young women earned marginally more, but up until 40 is a different matter entirely. And earning more in 147 out of 150 main US cities - a heck of of a lot more in some.

Either the data is being used deceivingly or the general cultural narrative about women earning loads less just isn't the truth. It's kind of mutually exclusive.

RoseslnTheHospital · 10/10/2022 22:04

Are you reading the same articles as the ones you've posted? The one about young women in the US only applies to those who live in cities and for a specific age group. You're taking that to mean that women everywhere out earn men. It's a specific group of women for a specific amount of time only.

Ditto for the DM article. Women "out earned" men (in 2015) for two decades, but by 1.1% and 0.2%. After 40 this flipped to women earning 13.6% less and then after 50, it was 18% less than men. Men are not suffering a lifetime of under pay in comparison to women,

Yes, it's motherhood or perceived potential motherhood, plus other caring duties (elderly relatives for example) that is a large part of the problem.

Galaktoboureko · 10/10/2022 22:16

You're taking that to mean that women everywhere out earn men. It's a specific group of women for a specific amount of time only.

Um, no I'm not. I said 'young women' multiple times.

RoseslnTheHospital · 10/10/2022 22:21

You said

Either the data is being used deceivingly or the general cultural narrative about women earning loads less just isn't the truth. It's kind of mutually exclusive.

Which surely means that you think your examples mean that women don't earn "loads" less than men. When they do, if you look at the entire working period, and all women, rather than picking specific types of women in specific situations for specific chunks of time, using data from 2015.

Galaktoboureko · 10/10/2022 22:23

Men are not suffering a lifetime of under pay in comparison to women.

True, but to play devil's advocate women aren't suffering a lifetime of full time work in many cases. It seems that women going part time often coincides quite conveniently with the age where their partners hit maximum earning potential in their career.

That's why I'm a bit hmm about all this patriarchy stuff when I see loads of the women I know working part time and enjoying a pretty decent quality of life. I feel like a lot of middle aged women don't really care for chasing the career when they no longer need to. I'm sure that comment will ruffle some feathers but it's how it looks to me.

I'm happy to be proved wrong though.