Why do lots of black women still feel that feminism is nit for them?

[SpringHasSprungYay]

Isn't it sad that in this day & age, so many black women still feel that feminism is a white woman's thing.
How can we make things better?

Is it screenshot time? I've only seen those who expose intersectionality dehumanise black women. I suggest you ask Alison Bailey, Maja Forstater, Sonja Appleby, Kierra Bell or the Racquel Rosia Sanchez if they feel supported by GC feminism. Real feminism supports all women. It's funny that intersectional feminism appears to be very white and middle class. Contrast that to the campaign group Sex Matters. Still, carry on throwing your unevidenced insinuations, we are quite used to your (increasingly desperate) tactics.

@MoonbeamSprinkles

People really aren’t ‘just looking to be offended’ about the word uppity.

And the fact that you’re so dismissive and defensive at it being brought up is just showing the exact reason why this might not feel like a welcoming place for black women.

Imagine if someone used the word hysterical about women on this board and then when they were told it wasn’t a good word to use they said people were just looking to be offended.

!!

@CreamOnFirst

Yoi only have to look at the faces of the "Respect My Sex" campaign to see how white and middle class "Mumsnet feminism" is.

It's more a hobby than a movement.

So much misogyny in one post.

There’s a lot of misdirected hot anger and resentment at white middle aged/classed women, even true feminists. It is plain to see and it’s sad. What’s the equivalent of ‘Karen’ for white men? Oh, there isn’t any.

Calling women Karen or assuming they’re a ‘Karen’ is misogynistic.

Feminism is for all women and race and a persons class shouldn’t be a barrier. Often times, I see the barrier is just assumed.

'Ranting about toilets' is how you sum up the gender ideology attack on womeen's rights? You forgot ranting about males in women's prisons and sports and rape crisis shelters and changing rooms. And ranting about sterilising gender non conforming, autistic or gay girls. Yes typical intersectional feminist. Oh look a squirrel.....

Is it screenshot time?

Exactly what I was thinking! I'm pretty sure this thread has been started by Ann Scrotes and her cronies to make the FWR board look bad.

Calling women Karen or assuming they’re a ‘Karen’ is misogynistic.

Yes, it's used by men and TRA'S to shut women up

The aroma of white privilege is all over this. The reason why black women tend not to get involved, and by the way Pakistani and Indian women are not black, just putting that out there, is because any black woman who makes a stand, whether it involves feminism, business or work based is immediately labelled ‘aggressive’ or threatening’ while a white woman is applauded for standing up for her rights. As bad as this sound, this is the reality of some women.

Minimizing their actual lived experiences as not important and telling them to focus on things that are important for “all feminists” aka white women.

Yep also this. One of the best comments I’ve seen on this thread actually

Ask them
This.
Then listen when they tell you.
Not try and argue back '' I don't think that happens'' or whatever.
Listen.

@Jericho65

Not ranting about toilets. I got give two fucks if the are unisex toilets.

So you don't care about the safety of women and girls? Got it.

I think we should be weary of some of the people posting here, they may not be what they seem.

I am very weary.

@Apollo441

Is it screenshot time? I've only seen those who expose intersectionality dehumanise black women. I suggest you ask Alison Bailey, Maja Forstater, Sonja Appleby, Kierra Bell or the Racquel Rosia Sanchez if they feel supported by GC feminism. Real feminism supports all women. It's funny that intersectional feminism appears to be very white and middle class. Contrast that to the campaign group Sex Matters. Still, carry on throwing your unevidenced insinuations, we are quite used to your (increasingly desperate) tactics.

Agreed real feminism supports all women. By my reason for posting the OP was that clearly not all women feel supported. I thought it might be interesting to explore why and how we might combat that.

I am a strong objector to the use of "Karen" to silence middle-aged women.

However, reading the BMN thread on this topic gave me some understanding of why many black women don't feel like this. From the perspective of people constantly battling racism, the use of 'Karen' (in some cases) as an effective way to shut down racists trumps other considerations.

There are lots of arguments I could put forward as a white woman to counter this - for example, that the insult is also used frequently used to shut middle-aged women of non-white heritage - but it's not for me to object to views formed by a black woman's lived experience.

@GoodJanetBadJanet

Ask them This. Then listen when they tell you. Not try and argue back '' I don't think that happens'' or whatever. Listen.

How do we change things?

@Antarcticant

I am a strong objector to the use of "Karen" to silence middle-aged women.

However, reading the BMN thread on this topic gave me some understanding of why many black women don't feel like this. From the perspective of people constantly battling racism, the use of 'Karen' (in some cases) as an effective way to shut down racists trumps other considerations.

There are lots of arguments I could put forward as a white woman to counter this - for example, that the insult is also used frequently used to shut middle-aged women of non-white heritage - but it's not for me to object to views formed by a black woman's lived experience.

Agreed.

@Eightiesfan

The aroma of white privilege is all over this. The reason why black women tend not to get involved, and by the way Pakistani and Indian women are not black, just putting that out there, is because any black woman who makes a stand, whether it involves feminism, business or work based is immediately labelled ‘aggressive’ or threatening’ while a white woman is applauded for standing up for her rights. As bad as this sound, this is the reality of some women.

This is true.

But often times, the stand is against other women who aren’t racist and it just doesn’t help. It alienates.

Context is everything isn't it, and inevitably we're all mainly influenced by our own experiences. In the social media age, American language and tropes can become dominant, even when they bear little relation to what's going on here in the UK.

I keep trying to disengage myself with American voices on the trans debate as I guess I consider it a lost cause. Their culture isn't my culture, and I'd rather save my energy for the discussions here where I actually have a chance of making meaningful impact.

I'm in Scotland, where our culture and demographics are different again. I fully admit I don't see issues through a black perspective, as I don't know any black people. In my area, the black population (thinking of school parents, NHS workers etc) are professionals who I (naively?) imagine have broadly the same values and priorities that I do.

And by far the dominant minority are brown, not black.

Much of the debate doesn't seem to fit here.

@Apollo441

'Ranting about toilets' is how you sum up the gender ideology attack on womeen's rights? You forgot ranting about males in women's prisons and sports and rape crisis shelters and changing rooms. And ranting about sterilising gender non conforming, autistic or gay girls. Yes typical intersectional feminist. Oh look a squirrel.....

So what is your answer to the issue raised in the op?

Should we just be happy for feminism to be segregated?

Should we not try to understand why some women's lived experiences are different from our own & how that affects their feelings?

and by the way Pakistani and Indian women are not black, just putting that out there

Having listened to what black women here wanted, going by the name of the sub forum that was created, I was using what I thought was the preferred choice if nomenclature.

That is the kind of disagreement that makes it absolutely impossible to discuss such topics.

We either want to listen to all women or we don't.

It’s amusing to read why it’s okay to call white women Karen’s.

This equivalent would not be accepted for other races, this is not feminism. I say this as a mixed race person of black heritage.

@Antarcticant

I am a strong objector to the use of "Karen" to silence middle-aged women.

However, reading the BMN thread on this topic gave me some understanding of why many black women don't feel like this. From the perspective of people constantly battling racism, the use of 'Karen' (in some cases) as an effective way to shut down racists trumps other considerations.

There are lots of arguments I could put forward as a white woman to counter this - for example, that the insult is also used frequently used to shut middle-aged women of non-white heritage - but it's not for me to object to views formed by a black woman's lived experience.

Absolutely this. I've been off MN for months. I saw the thread on Black Mumsnetters as it was trending, I didn't notice the board it was on. I read through it and cringed; learned a huge amount, didn't post. So many 'white mumsnetter here' posters bowling on to give their misguided and pompous views which were absolutely unnecessary and clearly unwanted.

Then there was an FWR poster who did the faux 'What can we dooooo to make it better for you'? Outrageous. That poster was criticised roundly - and rightly so.

And then here you come, OP, with your disingenuous and patronising head-patting thread. I don't blame any woman - black or otherwise - for thinking that feminism isn't for them. If MN feminism is anything to go by, it's not really for women at all.

I'm disgusted but not surprised at this thread.

I’ve seen a lot of ignorance on here not just towards black women but Asian and Muslim women and culture too

Maybe just listen at times

I’m white so I’m speaking from that perspective and I have absolutely no academic knowledge on this do this is just my gut speaking.

The way I look at this situation is that there is a lot of sexism and misogyny in the world but racism and racist structures that exists across western countries have caused unbearable and unbelievable harm.

Feminism as a movement has made huge progress for western women in the last century. Heck even in my lifetime the cultural differences in the treatment of women and the progress made are extraordinary. But there is still so much to do

If we were to bring our western feminism into a country that is far behind on women’s rights issues say for example Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia then culturally western feminism is so far apart from the issues that these women face that really western feminism has nothing to offer.

In some ways this is true of feminism for black women living in western societies too I think. They have so much oppression to overcome before they can even get to the issues that western feminism is focussing on now and they have the actual horror of being part of that western world which does not give them full access to the benefits of that world instead it still hurts and harms them in unbelievable ways.

I live in Ireland and this is true of the travelling community here too so it is not simply down to colour of skin, it is down to marginalisation of certain groups of people. Travellers here are so marginalised that the notion that western feminism has anything to offer them in the face of that marginalisation seems like a farce.

I don’t think that western feminism should stop trying to make the necessary progress for women in
Western society but I do believe that we need to face up to the huge issue of racism as part of that struggle. Racism should be a central and core feminist issue because it affects women of colour in western societies who should be able to feel like they’re are fully participating members of that society but they don’t.

Why don't you post in the black mum's net section but then if you're white they'll kick off

It's an open forum but for some reason they think only black women are allowed to view that section

@Tillsforthrills

It’s amusing to read why it’s okay to call white women Karen’s.

This equivalent would not be accepted for other races, this is not feminism. I say this as a mixed race person of black heritage.

Yup