Why do lots of black women still feel that feminism is nit for them?

[SpringHasSprungYay]

Isn't it sad that in this day & age, so many black women still feel that feminism is a white woman's thing.
How can we make things better?

[user1471504747]

In regards to the whole “uppity” thing. Can you not see how ridiculous it is that some GC feminists are so wrapped up in issues with trans people they simply cannot believe black posters feel unable to identify with white MN feminists, and it must actually be a TRA conspiracy?

You’ve never seen racism in FWR so therefore it doesn’t exist and it’s only TRAs claiming it does.

[Soontobe60]

@HumunaHey

It's not just black women, it's many women of all races.

MN feminism has a lot to take credit for. You only need to read the attack on black women and faux confusion on some of the BM threads.

I personally also don't buy into the TWAW ideology, but some of the threads on here go beyond that and are just transphobic. Not the threads discusing/highlighting sex based rights, but others where there is pearl clutching at anything trans.

Can you show me some of these ‘pearl-clutching’ threads please, because I can’t recall any.

[SamphirethePogoingStickerist]

Yes, to the idea that such crap is posted to divide and conquer.

[Tillsforthrills]

My mother is black and wouldn’t conclude someone is racist if they were to call her uppity or sneering if that’s how she were behaving.

It’s not helpful to any discussions that there’s a huge fear of saying the wrong thing to describe a persons actions, personality or how they’re coming across because they’ll get ‘racist!!’ screamed in their face.

Looking back on my mother’s advice, I’d say she’s a feminist.

[lovelyweathertoday]

I don't post (and don't normally look) on the black Mumsnet section as it's not for me. I did read that recent thread which ended up in active and was surprised at how much anger there was towards this board.

I think it's one of the problems with anonymous forums that in a mostly white country the assumption is that people posting are white unless they specify otherwise. So the actual diversity of women here isn't obvious,

I'd be interested in suggestions here if what we should be doing differently. I always assume references to women includes all women, not just white women.

[mudgetastic]

It's not looking for offence to point it out

But some people don't point it out but assume guilt and rage and act the victim

Not all by any means , but especially on the internet it only takes one such person to put my back up - make you feel defensive rather than interested in listening - abs then I wonder if it's done on purpose to drive wedges between people

( And it's bloody hard having to learn so when it's not part of your own culture !)

[Ikaiface]

Accusing women of "pearl clutching" is pretty misogynistic and just another way of trying to silence us - it's a TRA tactic.

[user1471504747]

@Tillsforthrills

My mother is black and wouldn’t conclude someone is racist if they were to call her uppity or sneering if that’s how she were behaving.

It’s not helpful to any discussions that there’s a huge fear of saying the wrong thing to describe a persons actions, personality or how they’re coming across because they’ll get ‘racist!!’ screamed in their face.

Looking back on my mother’s advice, I’d say she’s a feminist.

So because your mother wouldn’t say it’s racist the posters that do find it racist are wrong?

Also btw, when white people say stuff along the lines of “you’re scared to say anything these days because you’ll get called racist” it’s exactly the same as men saying “you can’t say anything to a woman these days now it’s all #metoo”.

It’s really not that difficult to just not be racist...

And the word used in the posters already racist context doesnt exactly make the use of the word look any less racist

[CreamOnFirst]

Yoi only have to look at the faces of the "Respect My Sex" campaign to see how white and middle class "Mumsnet feminism" is.

It's more a hobby than a movement.

[mudgetastic]

When I complain at a man which might lead then to say you can't say anything it's rarely about a word and more likely about the meaning of the whole phrase

Context

Although at this point I didn't see the original context - just surprised at the interpretation of the word

Every day a school day

[Soontobe60]

@maddy68

This forum puts me off this kind of feminism. So much aggression that doesn't represent me at all.

Feminism means a different thing to me. It means equality
Not ranting about toilets. I got give two fucks if the are unisex toilets. Etc

You’re confusing equality with equity.
Equality means giving everybody the same - so in schools all children would receive the same support regardless of their needs. There would be no designated disabled toilets, as that’s not ‘equality’. All students would be given the same student loans regardless of parental income. There would be no things like scholarships that targeted disadvantaged groups - that’s not equality. And so on.
Regarding public toilets, equality would mean everyone having access to mixed sex toilets. Which would mean all public toilets would need to be completely self contained single use rooms like you have on aeroplanes or trains. I don’t think anyone would disagree with that.

[Luredbyapomegranate]

Blimey OP, I am not that clued up but I have half an idea about this.. because feminism is often criticised as being focused on white middle class women with professional jobs and resources. It can not take into account the different experiences of women of colour, or the needs of women who don’t and will never have ‘careers’ but work minimum wage and struggle to put food on the table.

Conversely I think criticism of feminism often expects individual feminists for not being all things go all people, which is entirely unreasonable. But feminism as a whole needs to be broader.

I think womanism is an alternative approach - I don’t know a thing about it but it might be worth looking up. Also do read why I’m no longer talking to white people about race, the author of that book was a very active feminist but struggled with its white MC focus.

I’m not giving you a hard time BTW - wanting to make feminism more inclusive is good. But if you really don’t have an clue as to why it’s viewed as exclusive then some reading is urgently called for - and since the George floyd case the info is way more accessible than it used to be.

[mudgetastic]

You can tell class from a photo ?

[MarshmallowSwede]

For one.. equating wind called a “Karen” with being called the N word.

Telling black women how something isn’t racism and explaining that the person saying racist things didn’t mean to be racist. When clearly they perceived that racist action as racist.

Minimizing their actual lived experiences as not important and telling them to focus on things that are important for “all feminists” aka white women.

Accusing them of being divisive whenever they bring up the issues of intersectionalism and “white women feminism “.

I could go on but as a white Swedish woman it’s only so many examples I can give. I’m sure black women have millions more.

[Soontobe60]

@CreamOnFirst

Yoi only have to look at the faces of the "Respect My Sex" campaign to see how white and middle class "Mumsnet feminism" is.

It's more a hobby than a movement.

Eh? What are you going on about?
Are you saying that feminists can only be non - white and either working class or upper class (whatever that might mean)?

[spirallingupwards]

@maddy68

This forum puts me off this kind of feminism. So much aggression that doesn't represent me at all.

Feminism means a different thing to me. It means equality
Not ranting about toilets. I got give two fucks if the are unisex toilets. Etc

It's just about the toilets though, is it? FFS

[Tillsforthrills]

@user1471504747

What’s wrong is that a lot of times, women are accused of racism because a person feels like saying anything negative about them (if they’re being defensive, rude etc) is automatically racism. The fact that the person feels like it’s automatic racism instead of a remark on how they’re behaving or unable to reason doesn’t mean it’s actual racism.

My mother has encountered racism but she doesn’t assume every person is racist off the bat. She has a group of friends who she has corrected on many things and they’ve listened and learned.

Feminism should allow us to feel like we’re among sisters but sadly that is not the case.

[Rightsraptor]

But, @roundtable, isn't the discussion here about the word 'uppity' showing a distinction in use between the UK and US? In the former it tends to mean, as I wrote before, 'above your station', while in the US it has an added layer of racism. Why should we import US meanings?

This reminds me of a British professor working in an American uni who lost his job for using the word 'spooks'. Apparently that has a racist meaning where he was in the states. He was using it to mean ghosts or spirits.

[spudjulia]

@SpringHasSprungYay

Yes, I read the "uppity" comment as being aimed at TRAs, some people commenting here are just looking to be offended.


And some words are very loaded.

You don't have to have dug very deep in this to understand that 'uppity' is a racist term used against black women.

[tabbycatstripy]

I think it’s a divide and conquer issue. Feminism is obviously for all women, but if you can persuade people it’s just for white women (although I can’t see a single reason why that would be true), you can hitch anti-feminism to anti-racism, and in doing so, weaken it.

[Doubletoilandtrouble]

I think many women here do a huge amount of other feminist activities outside MN, myself included. We can talk about that in real life.

This is the only place where many of us can talk about the conflict between trans rights and women’s rights.

The women in the pictures “respect my sex” have sacrificed a huge amount to advocate for women’s rights. Maybe more disadvantaged women cannot afford to do that?

[SamphirethePogoingStickerist]

@CreamOnFirst

Yoi only have to look at the faces of the "Respect My Sex" campaign to see how white and middle class "Mumsnet feminism" is.

It's more a hobby than a movement.

Right. So, continuing on from my first post here, this is the sort of thing I mean.

I want to defend the women who started that, hell I joined them because what they are fighting for is for all women. But, in the face if this kind of hostility, how do I do that without being labelled racist, uncaring, middle class, Karen etc?

How can we fix this?

[roundtable]

@mudgetastic

It's not looking for offence to point it out

But some people don't point it out but assume guilt and rage and act the victim

Not all by any means , but especially on the internet it only takes one such person to put my back up - make you feel defensive rather than interested in listening - abs then I wonder if it's done on purpose to drive wedges between people

( And it's bloody hard having to learn so when it's not part of your own culture !)

I'm not sure who you think has assumed guilt and rage and is 'acting the victim'?

Your words seem loaded to me and I was silly to let myself be drawn in as I believe you are possibly just trying to skirt the line without saying anything overtly.

As I mentioned previously, if you truly want to understand, there is lots of literature out there. I think we're probably not going to get anywhere with this though so I will bow out now.

Happy Easter all

[pedropony76]

It’s a good example of why a black woman might feel like the conversations here aren’t for them. It must be exhausting to have to explain why certain things are racist and be met with defensiveness.

Exactly this. The fact that a poster said the need for having a BMN section makes them uncomfortable even though they don’t know why, says it all. There are SO many issues that only impact black woman and it’s great that we can have a space to discuss these issues. It is so so tiring having to explain the same things over and over again to people who simply do not get it

[pedropony76]

@maddy68

This forum puts me off this kind of feminism. So much aggression that doesn't represent me at all.

Feminism means a different thing to me. It means equality
Not ranting about toilets. I got give two fucks if the are unisex toilets. Etc

Yep this is me too