The cult of motherhood - feminism's unfinished business

[TellMeItsPossible]

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/may/18/parent-trap-why-the-cult-of-the-perfect-mother-has-to-end?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1639042839

The pressure mothers are put under, compared to even 50 years ago, sort of blows my mind.

What can we do, as feminists, to improve the lot of mothers? I agree that we need to work on this. Mothering can't be viewed through a patriarchal lense, shoehorned into existing structures, and mothers can't be continually treated as a resource provider for a capitalist world (see also: panic over dropping birth rates).

Yes, I know many mothers who worry about their kids or about how they're treated as second class citizens in and out of the workplace now they've had kids, but I don't know a single mother who worries about parenting trends or what some book says about them. Everyone I know ditched the advice books by month 3. I think they're mainly aimed pre-motherhood surely? Once you're actually doing it, who's realistically spending their free time reading a mothering book?

I’m v lucky I have extended family on both sides to help. It is a good support network. I do try and give back too by doing stuff for them. I think family/friend support (if available) is really worth thinking about when considering where to live - would take a pay cut for it.

@sheroku

I don't have kids and have a question that I don't feel I can ask any of my mum friends lest they take it the wrong way.

Why don't women share the burden of childcare between themselves more? I see women on maternity leave at the same time as their friends and yet they seem so lonely. They all talk about how it's impossible to have a shower or go to the toilet because someone needs to watch the baby. Why don't they go round each other's houses and do it jointly? Why not rotate the childcare around so they each get a proper day off? (obviously the last one only works if you've stopped breastfeeding)

The reason I ask is because this is what used to happen. The responsibility for raising kids wouldn't be all on the mother's shoulders - friends, family etc would all muck in and help out.

(N.B. don't worry I've not forgotten that dads exist, I'm just focusing on mothers in this post)

There are too many reasons to list why this doesn't happen more. People live further apart, have kids with special needs etc Tbh am sick of people without children commenting on what mothers 'should' do. No-one ever mentions the bloody dad's stepping up, no it's always mothers just doing it wrong 🤔🤔

@theemperorhasnoclothes

I don't like the assumption of the article that people advocating breastfeeding, for example, are trying to create impossible standards of perfection rather than maybe, in some cases, just trying to shift the conversation away from what is the patriarchal norm. And actually make life easier and cheaper for women.

And the norm is still bottle feeding in the UK. Largely pushed to maximise profits for the formula companies and so the woman can go back to work.

I think feminism's real unfinished business is the fact that a lot of the time (not on here but among academic feminists) motherhood is seen as somehow lesser than a career, and not valued, in the UK certainly. I've lived in another country where motherhood was considered a valuable societal contribution and very important to child wellbeing and safeguarding (and it was supported by the state accordingly - also all childcare workers had to have a degree and were paid about the national median salary, unlike the low pay here).

This is exactly the cause of the problems I came across when I was bullied at BFing support - women being told that BFing is easier and free. I even had one woman there tell me she really loved her baby so was determined to make BFing work! Then sneering about 'expensive' formula when it actually works out cheaper than BFing!

The reality is very different - I had loads of pressure to BF, loads of stuff about how natural, easy and free it is. It made both me and my baby seriously ill (hypernatraemic dehydration necessitating readmission to hospital and severe PND). I was bullied at BFing support because the other mums had believed all this stuff and thought they were superior.

And there was very little else out there for new mums as all the focus was on BFing support rather than support for new families. It's even worse now since the cuts as the only support available is for BFing.

I'm sorry that was your experience Riding, and I have no doubt it happens, but it happens the other way too, there's a thread on here just now about a woman whose MIL is constantly pushing formula on her and the baby.

I wasn't really talking about individuals I was talking about the framing of the article that 'breastfeeding' should be considered in the same light 'as perfect instagrammable mum' type pressure. It's not the same thing. Someone like Prof Amy Brown- who wrote 'informed is best' absolutely supports there being better support for mothers in general and them then having the choice of how to feed their baby. IIRC she's written some pretty interesting stuff about how it's a real trick the patriarchy's pulled to get women warring among themselves about this all the while support for mothers is just cut and cut and cut.

My personal experience is that there was no bf support at all where I lived, as mentioned upthread, the only clinic was at the hospital a half hour drive away which I couldn't do as I'd had a c section and not supposed to drive. I also got a load of formula pushed on me at the hospital. But there wasn't any support for anything - not just bf but anything at all. The supposed 'support' for women which is just a thinly disguised marketing effort is the worst, especially when there's no real practical support.

And whilst there are militant breastfeeding advocates out there that don't really benefit women, the attempt of the patriarchy/ capitalism to outsource women's bodily functions and reduce them to commodities I think is a bit of an issue in general.

The formula industry is part of this and has caused real harm to women and babies worldwide, and surrogacy is another similar issue.

Women should not be forced to breastfeed, but there's a hell of a lot more money put into formula marketing than breastfeeding support. I'd be in favour of formula having to be a non-profit business, so it's more about nutrition and the babies rather than maximising profits for shareholders. This would be in both mothers and babies best interests.

Also, in an ideal world, donor milk should be freely available to those who can't feed their babies themselves but wish to use breastmilk, and there are many women who want this. Yet, milk banks which used to exist in the NHS were shut down and de funded. There's been a new milk bank set up heartsmilkbank.org/ - with the aim to help prem babies but also women who can't breastfeed due to aggressive medical treatment (e.g. having to start chemo straight after birth). Given that, particularly for the prem babies, this should save the NHS money in the long term you'd think there would be some state investment but there isn't.

Most of the complaints about motherhood focus on when kids are under five years old.
I get it, but with my youngest now ten, I'm still existentially bored out of my brains to the point where life seems hopeless and I'll never feel any pleasure again. There's still the drudgery, meals, clothes, entertaining them, and the need to accompany them or be at home with them. It's like a personal death that you aren't allowed to talk about without 'concern' shifting to the children.
I hate motherhood and the ideology around it that turns women into emotional and often economic slaves.

I love the kids, I love being with them. Shame that I spend most of the time (Xmas being a good example) endlessly chained to the kitchen. The fucking endless catering, prep, planning and clear up.

For my birthday this year I'm going to ask for 4 days without any cooking. I'll be interested to see if it materialises, I doubt it. And at the end of the day, like most mothers, I'm not going to actually let my children go without food (especially since one of them doesn't eat at school).

I think motherhood in this country is utterly shit, women who are mothers treated as second class citizens whilst simultaneously being expected to do loads of volunteer work. One of the reasons I think there are fewer baby groups now than there were for me with DD1 is because the pool of women willing to volunteer is drying up - it's becoming less and less rewarding to give time for free, economic conditions mean more people simply can't afford to and have to do paid work for longer, and it's clear from the actions of the politicians that any kind of unpaid caring is absolutely taken for granted. People could be given tax breaks for volunteering or unpaid caring, for example, but no.

It's also clear that policy is made by people who generally have no clue about child or elder care. Like the recent gaffe where they just assumed they could expect women to work much longer without taking account of the lost unpaid caring this would mean the state would have to pick up.

@theemperorhasnoclothes

And whilst there are militant breastfeeding advocates out there that don't really benefit women, the attempt of the patriarchy/ capitalism to outsource women's bodily functions and reduce them to commodities I think is a bit of an issue in general.

The formula industry is part of this and has caused real harm to women and babies worldwide, and surrogacy is another similar issue.

Women should not be forced to breastfeed, but there's a hell of a lot more money put into formula marketing than breastfeeding support. I'd be in favour of formula having to be a non-profit business, so it's more about nutrition and the babies rather than maximising profits for shareholders. This would be in both mothers and babies best interests.

Also, in an ideal world, donor milk should be freely available to those who can't feed their babies themselves but wish to use breastmilk, and there are many women who want this. Yet, milk banks which used to exist in the NHS were shut down and de funded. There's been a new milk bank set up heartsmilkbank.org/ - with the aim to help prem babies but also women who can't breastfeed due to aggressive medical treatment (e.g. having to start chemo straight after birth). Given that, particularly for the prem babies, this should save the NHS money in the long term you'd think there would be some state investment but there isn't.

There’s an awful lot wrong with this post.

Breastfeeding simply isn’t beneficial enough for us to be obsessing over it at the rate that we do. The long term benefit, if formula is made correctly and hygienically, is negligible.

It certainly isn’t worth mental health struggles, feelings of failure or dehydrated babies being readmitted to hospital.

And I find it odd that you’re very against women’s bodies being outsourced for the gain of others, but think women should sit at the pump & donate breast milk?!

I think this is an excellent idea.
I also agree that mothers are vilified constantly.
I was only saying that I would advocate having a planned caesarean rather than the horrendous natural birth I had and a childless female work colleague told me I was wrong. That caesareans are far worse. This is a form of criticising mothers.

Plenty of women want to donate milk and have oversupply and can do so very easily and quickly - are you saying they shouldn't be able to? And it can be life saving for poorly premature babies. Women do actually donate milk online, it's a thriving community, but without the safeguards of milk banks.

If it was only about the nutritional benefits of breastmilk vs formula then maybe you'd have a point, but it isn't, it's about a massive for-profit business exploiting women. And whilst in the west where there's clean water, formula is safe, in countries where there isn't clean water, it's often not.

I don't think breastfeeding is the biggest issue though - just that it's not a 'lifestyle' issue which the original article seemed to imply it was alongside other pressures to be a 'perfect Mum'.

And I'm not suggesting women should sell their milk.

That would be commodification - the clues in the word 'donate'.

I breastfed, and after reading a lot about it, what I don't actually see much being made of is the possible health benefits to women themselves. Reduction in cancer rates seems to be quite a significant one. As a woman with a family history of breast cancer (maternal aunt and maternal grandmother, as well as a maternal great aunt), that information is quite significant.

SouthernFashionista I was objecting to your pejorative ‘navel gazing’ about mothers who have certain thoughts and feelings, different from yours, and suggestion that if they were ‘busy’ they wouldn’t have time for the ‘navel gazing’.

You also assume that friends/family think and feel as you do, because they haven’t explicitly said otherwise.

@theemperorhasnoclothes

Plenty of women want to donate milk and have oversupply and can do so very easily and quickly - are you saying they shouldn't be able to? And it can be life saving for poorly premature babies. Women do actually donate milk online, it's a thriving community, but without the safeguards of milk banks.

If it was only about the nutritional benefits of breastmilk vs formula then maybe you'd have a point, but it isn't, it's about a massive for-profit business exploiting women. And whilst in the west where there's clean water, formula is safe, in countries where there isn't clean water, it's often not.

I don't think breastfeeding is the biggest issue though - just that it's not a 'lifestyle' issue which the original article seemed to imply it was alongside other pressures to be a 'perfect Mum'.

Where did I say they shouldn’t be able to?

Why does formula exploit women?

Given the low number of women breastfeeding their own babies, how can you say ‘plenty’ of women want to donate milk?

Women don’t talk enough about the difficulties of early motherhood. It’s taboo. The result is that new mums are woefully under-prepared for what happens and they struggle immensely. There is very little support available and current paternity laws don’t help. My husband couldn’t take even a single day of paternity leave because our finances are based on him earning £1000 per week and statutory paternity pay is £150 per week, we couldn’t afford to lose that amount of money. If he had received 90% of salary like women on maternity leave do, he would have been able to take time off to support me.

@TellMeItsPossible I got told a lot antenatally about the benefits of BFing for me. Which turned out to either be incredibly subjective, not true at all or not given context. The reduction in breast cancer risk is tiny. It makes a difference to the NHS but the risk reduction is, for at least six months of BFing, actually a drop from 12.5% to 12% for developing breast cancer. In women who were under 35 when they had their first baby. I'm afraid your genetics plays a much bigger role. Clearly a reduction of 0.5% across millions of women is a lot of women but it's very little difference for an individual woman. And whether it's worth it for that individual is going to differ a lot and up to an individual family to make.

I also found that info was really unbalanced - I later found out your risk of getting any kind of cancer is increased for ten years after having a child (and have seen this happen to two friends - both BF, both diagnosed with cancers in their babies' second years).

[quote RidingMyBike]@TellMeItsPossible I got told a lot antenatally about the benefits of BFing for me. Which turned out to either be incredibly subjective, not true at all or not given context. The reduction in breast cancer risk is tiny. It makes a difference to the NHS but the risk reduction is, for at least six months of BFing, actually a drop from 12.5% to 12% for developing breast cancer. In women who were under 35 when they had their first baby. I'm afraid your genetics plays a much bigger role. Clearly a reduction of 0.5% across millions of women is a lot of women but it's very little difference for an individual woman. And whether it's worth it for that individual is going to differ a lot and up to an individual family to make.

I also found that info was really unbalanced - I later found out your risk of getting any kind of cancer is increased for ten years after having a child (and have seen this happen to two friends - both BF, both diagnosed with cancers in their babies' second years). [/quote]
Wow.

This possibly also ties into the sexism that's baked into our healthcare system. Supremely shitty all around.

It would help immensely if much better quality info was available to women, enabling actual choices, backed up by funding for that.

So... pros and cons of all kinds of birth so you know eg your risk of tearing by age, of having a 'standard vaginal birth' or having an assisted delivery or EMCS rather than the current obsession with making women go to the birth centre if they're low risk. Lay out all the pros and cons and let them choose, whether that's an ELCS because they want to avoid tears, or a home birth. Obviously that would need funding!

Much better info of risks and benefits of EBF, EFFing and combi-feeding, instead of lots of blather about EBFing and no support for anything else. What is a good choice for one woman won't be for another, and sometimes there isn't a choice (eg if you have milk delay/low supply like I did). This would also stop women having to turn to the formula companies for advice. Restrictions on marketing already exist for formula, but they should be applied to BFing too so that over-hyped subjective claims aren't made and you can see the actual figures for supposed benefits. Provide support for infant feeding to all, no matter the feeding method, to stop stigmatising parents.

Like the idea upthread - have children's centres that are open to drop into as a welcoming inclusive place where you can go if you're struggling, lonely, suicidal, a bit sad, need to get out of the rain, fed up with being at home with a baby or just fancy a change of scene. Whether a mum, dad or carer. Somewhere you can get a cup of tea, put your baby down safely and not be judged. Again, lots of funding needed! We're really talking about the baby year here but also for the energetic toddlers - somewhere safe to run off steam, play without being glared at etc. but separate from the babies otherwise they'd run them over

It would also help to have crèche type facilities cheaply and easily available - I really struggled to cover things like dental appointments when mine was a baby (once I went back to work I went in work time whilst she was at nursery), let alone more frivolous stuff like a haircut! DH could do it, but had to take a half day's leave just to cover my 10 minute appt! Having somewhere like that to leave my baby for a couple of hours so I could have a break would have made a huge difference to my mental health on maternity leave.

But, again, funding. Although I do wonder how much our four days in SCBU caused by EBFing and then treating my severe PND cost...

@Toloveandtowork

Most of the complaints about motherhood focus on when kids are under five years old. I get it, but with my youngest now ten, I'm still existentially bored out of my brains to the point where life seems hopeless and I'll never feel any pleasure again. There's still the drudgery, meals, clothes, entertaining them, and the need to accompany them or be at home with them. It's like a personal death that you aren't allowed to talk about without 'concern' shifting to the children. I hate motherhood and the ideology around it that turns women into emotional and often economic slaves.

I agree. And it doesn’t end there: bigger kids often = bigger problems.

Teenagers are often very hard work and young adults need parenting, it really doesn’t all end when they’re 18, not remotely

And also the article says “ By the time a woman’s first child is 12, she is paid, on average, 33% less than a man, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies. Becoming a father gives men’s earnings a boost.”

I read a study that said when men asked for flexibility around working hours and children they were penalised in the sane way as women asking for it.

Women should not abandon their careers, they often earn less after children because they step back or down or go part time. And then end up with the worst of all worlds at work and at home. Doing it all rather than having it all.

The problem is that from day 1 somebody has to take time off to look after the baby. Mum gets 90% of salary while Dad only gets £150 per week. So Mum is the logical choice to take time off. Thus the status quo is set from the beginning and it never changes.

I was wondering this about older children (5+ years). I'm finding it easier now DD is 6, she doesn't require the constant supervision which make the baby/toddler years so draining. She's still demanding though and the pandemic has made it harder with the limitations on being in other homes (I am thoroughly sick of standing in the mud in the park!).

But also, we swopped over. DH took early retirement and is now an excellent SAHD whilst I work full-time in a job that involves a lot of travel. I'm enjoying motherhood a lot more now that I've got this balance. We had this option because our ages and career stages worked out and relocated to a cheaper area but this won't apply to a lot of couples or single parents. And what is helping make it work without family support is the availability of ad hoc wraparound care at school (eg if DH has a hospital appt that runs past school pick up time and I'm the other end of the country). The sort of ad hoc care we couldn't access when she was under 5 and I was struggling to get to the dentist! There seems more availability (not during the lockdowns!) of care/support for 5-11 year olds. We still use holiday clubs a bit so DD can have fun, DH can have a break or get to an appt and I can work. But all of that requires infrastructure and funding.

Toloveandtowork

I could not agree with you more.

I am constantly flabbergasted by the regressive pressure applied to women by women themselves. For example, my circle of acquaintance errs towards the alternative, and I constantly see posts being shared on Facebook urging “mammas” to “not listen to people who tell you to let your bubba’s cry” because they really really need their mummas, and as a mumma you’re so special, and nobody else can care for them like you do, and don’t worry if they wake you every hour on the hour for two years, “because they’re only tiny for such a short time”.

Message: who cares if sleep deprivation is literal torture, your child is worth everything, and as a mother you are worth nothing. I have known so many women in a terrible, terrible way through lack of sleep, but far too guilty to sleep train their older babies/ toddlers because it’s been guilted into them that they must sacrifice their very sanity and well being for their children.

Thanks to everyone who gave such thoughtful answers to my question. It honestly wasn't intended as a "mothers should do this" post (I have no idea what it's like to have small children and wouldn't presume to know what's best), it was a genuine question.

I guess I had naively thought that looking after 2 babies wouldn't be that much more difficult than looking after 1 but that seems to be very much not the case!