The cult of motherhood - feminism's unfinished business

[TellMeItsPossible]

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/may/18/parent-trap-why-the-cult-of-the-perfect-mother-has-to-end?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1639042839

The pressure mothers are put under, compared to even 50 years ago, sort of blows my mind.

What can we do, as feminists, to improve the lot of mothers? I agree that we need to work on this. Mothering can't be viewed through a patriarchal lense, shoehorned into existing structures, and mothers can't be continually treated as a resource provider for a capitalist world (see also: panic over dropping birth rates).

[SwanShaped]

@sheroku your idea is a good one, it just doesn’t seem to happen much. I had never realised how isolating a nuclear family is until I had a baby. Let alone if you’re a single mum. And I had good friends and a breastfeeding group and a NICU group I went to. There just isn’t the shared care of babies amongst women and I don’t know why. I think another thing, is that I felt so overwhelmed with mine, that the idea of having another to look after even for a bit was too much. It got easier once they were toddlers and could stay to play at friends’ houses.

[RidingMyBike]

@sheroku it would work in some circs, and I imagine if you had existing local close friends or a sister or cousin with a baby of similar age then that would help. Especially if it was just for an hour or two.

I actually did experience looking after two babies simultaneously for a while before I was pregnant and it was easier than looking after my eventual own one baby BUT I offered one day a week to a close friend who had cancer and 8mo twins. I looked after them whilst she went for treatment and her DH worked. The crucial differences (which I didn't appreciate at the time!) were that all I did was look after the babies for 8 hours - I had shower and breakfast before I got there, took a packed lunch with me, ate tea when I got home again and got a full nights sleep at home. The Dad left sterilised bottles, measured out formula and jars of baby food ready for me, along with a list of which baby had what when, which I just had to follow. I stayed in one room with them** all day, with a changing mat and pile of nappies. It was a very different experience to having one of my own, with the lack of sleep, never having a break from them, fitting in getting meals and showering, shopping etc.

I must admit it did entirely lull me into a false sense of security about my baby arriving!

[Toloveandtowork]

I sometimes wonder if the reason we don't read so much about having older kids is down to the woman being 'silenced' by the experience she has gone through which often involves losing herself. A kind of death of the spirit due to having no agency for a prolonged time.
Christ, I'm cheerful tonight.

[lilu38]

This article hits the nail on the head, but also barely touches the sides! I split with my partner when my baby was ten months. It was a toxic relationship and after my baby was born he developed a drinking problem and I was left to raise our newborn pretty much on my own (for the first two months I slept downstairs on the sofa so he could go to bed at 8pm every night to be fresh for work and no he didn't support me through maternity, I supported myself)! Needless to say I had PN anxiety! He would mock my mental health and call me a 'loon boon' and would tell me he wanted our baby 50% of the time! This man has taken minimal financial responsibility for his child, and makes threats to me all the time! I feel obliged to FaceTime him every night and allow him round the house to see my daughter whenever he wants! When I looked into the family court system I saw it was encouraged to allow 50% custody with fathers from a very young age (unless breastfeeding) it didn't seem to matter if the father had been abusive, drunk, taking drugs, financially irresponsible! I couldn't believe what I was reading... the bond between a young baby and its mother is not something to play out in courts! By all means let the baby spend time with its father but 50% overnight stays at such young ages disgusted me! It's human nature for a mother and baby to be together for the first few years of life. It disgusts me how little mothers are thought about in the family courts.

[KimikosNightmare]

from the guilt about not being able to breastfeed my first, having friends who had emergency c-sections and had the same level of guilt over missing out on a natural birth

I didn't feel guilty about either of these- why on earth should I? It's deeply irritating however that other women expect that I should have.

[Lifeisnteasy]

@KimikosNightmare

from the guilt about not being able to breastfeed my first, having friends who had emergency c-sections and had the same level of guilt over missing out on a natural birth

I didn't feel guilty about either of these- why on earth should I? It's deeply irritating however that other women expect that I should have.

I agree. There’s a strange dichotomy here where women insist others shouldn’t feel guilty about X or Y, before going on to say how guilty they feel themselves

[SickAndTiredAgain]

I agree. There’s a strange dichotomy here where women insist others shouldn’t feel guilty about X or Y, before going on to say how guilty they feel themselves

But it’s not always easy to follow your own advice or apply your logic to your own situation. Someone can simultaneously believe that, for example, there is no need to feel guilty about sending your child to nursery, while also having an emotional feeling of guilt about their own child being at nursery.
I don’t think that applies exclusively to motherhood either.

[theemperorhasnoclothes]

@lilu38

This article hits the nail on the head, but also barely touches the sides! I split with my partner when my baby was ten months. It was a toxic relationship and after my baby was born he developed a drinking problem and I was left to raise our newborn pretty much on my own (for the first two months I slept downstairs on the sofa so he could go to bed at 8pm every night to be fresh for work and no he didn't support me through maternity, I supported myself)! Needless to say I had PN anxiety! He would mock my mental health and call me a 'loon boon' and would tell me he wanted our baby 50% of the time! This man has taken minimal financial responsibility for his child, and makes threats to me all the time! I feel obliged to FaceTime him every night and allow him round the house to see my daughter whenever he wants! When I looked into the family court system I saw it was encouraged to allow 50% custody with fathers from a very young age (unless breastfeeding) it didn't seem to matter if the father had been abusive, drunk, taking drugs, financially irresponsible! I couldn't believe what I was reading... the bond between a young baby and its mother is not something to play out in courts! By all means let the baby spend time with its father but 50% overnight stays at such young ages disgusted me! It's human nature for a mother and baby to be together for the first few years of life. It disgusts me how little mothers are thought about in the family courts.

Sorry you've had such an awful time lilu - you're right the way in which family courts enable abusive men to go on abusing mothers and children is something that needs to be discussed in any conversation about feminism and motherhood.

It's an absolute scandal and one which feminism doesn't seem to do much about, I say feminism and not feminists as I do know there are lots of wonderful women helping those in your situation in many different ways, but whilst family courts remain as they are, I don't really think we can say feminism has even come close to helping those mothers most in need.

[theemperorhasnoclothes]

www.channel4.com/programmes/torn-apart-family-courts-uncovered-dispatches/on-demand/70168-001
don't watch if you're feeling fragile.

The male judge pontificating on whether harming a child and submitting them to trauma of forcible removal might be worth it is quite sickening. Bet he's never done all the childcare for any children in his life. Why can these men make these decisions? They should have proven knowledge of child psychology and development before being allowed to make such decisions at the very least. Are they monitoring the damage family courts cause to children? I bet not.

[KimikosNightmare]

@SickAndTiredAgain

I agree. There’s a strange dichotomy here where women insist others shouldn’t feel guilty about X or Y, before going on to say how guilty they feel themselves

But it’s not always easy to follow your own advice or apply your logic to your own situation. Someone can simultaneously believe that, for example, there is no need to feel guilty about sending your child to nursery, while also having an emotional feeling of guilt about their own child being at nursery.
I don’t think that applies exclusively to motherhood either.

That isn't what I was getting at. I didn't feel guilty at having a Caesarean. I didn't feel guilty at giving up breastfeeding. I didn't feel guilty about employing a nanny.

Regardless of individual views on whether that is terrible parenting or not there seems to be an assumption that I will feel guilty. The assumption seems to be it's natural and expected to feel guilty about doing these things, even if the guilt is misplaced.

[CheeseMmmm]

Read most of the article, OP and a few posts. Hope not repeating anything!

I'm not comfortable with the title 'feminism unfinished business'...

I'll get onto that after commenting on this-

'Worldwide, mothers are overworked, underpaid, often lonely and made to feel guilty about everything from epidurals to bottle feeding. Fixing this is the unfinished work of feminism'

She then goes onto talk about her experiences which are v much certain countries/ cultures, most definitely not worldwide experience.

What are mothers main concerns in Syria, for example? Afghanistan? Is this the top priority in India, Mexico? Rohingya mothers who have fled Burma?

And on and on and on.

Feminism worldwide, has a fuckton of things 'unfinished', plenty new things all the time, things that have been going on for years and years and just don't change, ...

Using those terms is imo totally iffy.

If I had to choose, I'd say WVAWG which encompasses such a huge amount of awful shit going on all the time all over the world would be my personal focus.

Why on earth write this? It's got my back up. If said in UK, or West, or whatever. But worldwide? What a ridiculous and terribly... Ignorant? Self centred? thing to say.

Moving on...

[CheeseMmmm]

In fact when it comes to motherhood worldwide,

And again, I'm not saying what she raises is not important but worldwide?

More urgent for universal decent access to contraception, map, abortion. And for women to be able to choose not to become a mother if they don't want to. And for girls not to have no choice but to have babies when too young. And then tackle health provisions pregnancy birth eg fistula huge issue. And then get everything sorted so children / mothers don't end up destitute, caught up in wars, .....

I mean yes the situation here plenty to discuss.

Worldwide? Ridiculous thing to say!

[TellMeItsPossible]

Very much agree with you @CheeseMmmm. There's another angle in there of blaming women for not foxing things, isn't there? And being far too narrow in scope to fully understand what feminism even is, to boot.

[CheeseMmmm]

And then. Why is it feminisms unfinished business? Not, society's, the govt, impact of Victorian ideals man woman 2.4 kids in home? How work is structured, impact of house prices meaning many don't live near their established support network... The attitude of too many dads...

Nope. Feminists! Come on. This is your job! Not like there's any thing needs sorting out!

And which feminists?

Motherhood has always been a topic in feminism that has loads of different ideas, often strongly held, huge rows, entrenched views. In short. I don't think 'feminism' has a definite stance!

From free childcare, to living in women and children communes, to not having babies at all, to being at home earth mother style, to back to work asap to keep independence financially to...

I mean changing stuff for women/girls is vvv hard full stop! If it wasn't there'd be no rape.

And breathe!

Will read thread now...

[CheeseMmmm]

Hello OP!

This article is all over the shop.

Loads to say wtf at but this I saw and just had to post.

'Some things have got worse. This statistical reality is concealed by the rhetoric of feminist progress, choice and empowerment'

Earlier she mentioned second wavers, now she's onto what might be called 'Dove' feminism. Lightweight, popular because challenges nothing except whether our armpits are moisturised enough. Commercialised, capitalist, male gaze subordinate dross that has gifted women and girls a pretty pink ribboned box with a massive shit inside, and told us to be grateful.

[Loveinacoldishclimate]

There is some good stuff in here - all the data shows there is a motherhood penalty on career progression and wages for women. High quality childcare is too expensive. The impact of that on income and outcomes for women - particularly those who are already disadvantaged - and their children is huge. Then there are changes in relationship dynamics and financial imbalances between parents which almost always work against women. However there’s quite a bit in the article I really didn’t like and found quite self indulgent. The narrative around “perfect motherhood” feels like a bit of a red herring and frankly doesn’t ring true.

I’m not trying to be obtuse but I don’t quite get the thrust of the article as whilst there may be pressure for a particular style of parenting at individual level it’s not there at societal level in fact it’s quite the opposite. The majority of women in the UK formula feed, return to work and there are many on this thread saying they sleep train etc. So I don’t get the premise of “perfect motherhood” and Instagram promoting a vision of motherhood that everyone else feels bound to. This is really emotive and I don’t want to be dismissive of anyone’s difficult experiences, but there are quite a few critical and snide comments about on this thread which have irked me.

For myself, I had a natural birth in midwife led birthing centre, loved maternity leave and baby groups and despite being the higher earner would have hated to split maternity leave with DH. I did extended breast feeding 3yrs and 4yrs, have never left my children to cry and although Ive never stuck a label on it I’m probably quite a “gentle parent.” I help on school trips and I enjoy playing with DC after school. There are definitely moments of holding firm to “this too shall pass” and definitely being bloody knackered etc, but I would have found it more stressful and detrimental to me to mother in the way some are suggesting as it’s not what I believe is right for my DC and it would have gone against all my instincts and values. Me, DH and DC are all doing well on this. I earn more part time than DH does full time and if we could genuinely afford to live on DH wage alone then I probably wouldn’t work although I have zero guilt that I do.

I know I have friends with different experiences and choices - not that it’s something we ever really talk about. I’m with @KimikosNightmare as I don’t think any of us view ourselves (or each other) as failures and certainly don’t judge or accuse each other. I don’t get why we would. Why should there be a value judgment about a caesarian or using a nanny 🤷‍♀️? What we do talk about is how the world of work better needs to adapt so we keep parents in the workforce and what we can do to move this along now we are ourselves more senior and have agency.

Sorry bit of an essay there but I got drawn in and needed to respond!

[Toomanyradishes]

Shared parental leave needs to be genuine shared parental leave e.g. enhanced pay for men which matches maternity leave. Paternity leave should be 6 weeks minimum in case the mother needs a c section. Men should ask for, and be given at the same rates as women in the same roles, more flexible hours etc etc instead of it being expected that this is for the mother to fix.

But also there is the whole 'it takes a village' mentality thats been lost. On a thread a few months ago several posters expressed the opinion that childless neighbours who were willing to babysit were dodgy or likely to be paedophiles, one poster said that a childless couple keeping toys in their house for neices and nephews meant they were wierd and likely to be up to no good. So whilst I understand not immediately trusting a neighbour, if your own sister or brother is suspect if they try to engage with your child before they have their own children then some mothers are cutting themselves off from an awful lots of support. Being so suspicious of others, and being in a society where 'only the mother knows best' fosters an environment where mothers end up with the majority of the childcare burden

[Loveinacoldishclimate]

@CheeseMmmm yes I’ve gone a bit off piste writing a huge tome, but I agree with everything that you’ve said in spades. This feels like a Cosmopolitan article from the 90s!

[CheeseMmmm]

My brief reaction is that

• She should have stuck to her area- exposing polemical strategies etc.

• She should step away from social media when it comes to anything to do with parenting, children, babies, families.

Because consuming all the posed prettified look how great I am stuff is really bad for you.
It's mainly insecure people posting look at me stuff which makes others insecure isn't it? Fuck that.

• In same vein. She needs some new different friends like like to me

Anyone want the long version?


I won't be buying her book...

[whereislittleroo]

@sheroku

I don't have kids and have a question that I don't feel I can ask any of my mum friends lest they take it the wrong way.

Why don't women share the burden of childcare between themselves more? I see women on maternity leave at the same time as their friends and yet they seem so lonely. They all talk about how it's impossible to have a shower or go to the toilet because someone needs to watch the baby. Why don't they go round each other's houses and do it jointly? Why not rotate the childcare around so they each get a proper day off? (obviously the last one only works if you've stopped breastfeeding)

The reason I ask is because this is what used to happen. The responsibility for raising kids wouldn't be all on the mother's shoulders - friends, family etc would all muck in and help out.

(N.B. don't worry I've not forgotten that dads exist, I'm just focusing on mothers in this post)

I think the theory of this is lovely, but if it involves packing up you and a young baby or toddler to go round to someone else's house, it's not always as easy as it sounds. Often it feels easier to be in your own home while you're adjusting in the early weeks and months. When my friends have babies, I a) make them some meals, b) offer to hold baby when I visit so they can shower/nap etc and c) do dishes/ironing/offer to buy groceries and d) have an honest, genuine "call me even if it's the middle of the night if you need a chat" agreement. These are the things I felt were most helpful to me when I had tiny babies.

As they got older, we didn't look after each other's kids so much as just let the kids play together so we could catch up.

[TooBigForMyBoots]

More support. Sure Start centres. Health visitors. Investment in female health. Mental help provision. Increased funding for refuges. More social housing.

Basically, all the stuff Conservative governments have cut over the last 10+ years.

[sheroku]

This has been a really interesting thread. I should add that the context of my question is that I'm at an age where I need to decide if I'm going to have kids or not. Watching my friends be lonely and exhausted and anxious all the time (and reading articles like the one from OP) really isn't selling it to me. I guess I'm trying to understand if there's "another way".

Reading the thread it sounds like your life is much easier if you've got a partner who can take a good chunk of paternity leave and is flexible with work, if you've got close, local friends with kids of a similar age or helpful family members 10-20 mins away. Right now I have none of these so that's not a good sign!

[SwanShaped]

Yes, sheroku those are all the things that make it easier. I have a good partner who shares the load equally and friends nearby. But like I said, we didn’t share baby care that much. But don’t have local family. I think that can make a huge difference.

[Jamdown123]

I had my fyrsr in 2014. Literally had one of many local children's centres to attend everyday. Had my second in 2017. That had whittled down to once every other or third day.
Had my last in June 2020. Covid. Nothing anywhere. First time I experienced a dip in my mood. If that were my first baby, not knowing what to expect, not being able to visit family, relationship clinging for dear life etc etc, it would have been another story completely.

I advise all first time parents to move close to real support if they can. It makes a massive difference. Killing off sure start was one of the tories most myopic and selfish acts, and that's saying something.

[Jamdown123]

During covid I happened upon a YouTube channel, the perfect mum type channel. Homeschooling, perfect husband who made her smoothies in the morning and kissed her feet, a water birth on a tub, fresh mangoes from her tree for breakfast every morning (white middle class American family in hawaii), and it haunted me. I felt like crying every time I thought of that one episode. Seriously fuck those people for pushing this bullshit. It's really only hormonal perinatal women who are being pushed these channels because of advertising algorithms, and we REALLY don't need it.