Menopause trainer "not a feminist"

[namechanging987]

I'm doing training this morning about menopause for managers. I've been impressed so far particularly because I was expecting "people" rather than women but that hasn't occurred. However, she stated during it "now I'm not a feminist" I can't remember the context exactly, something to do with the equality act, I just found this such a bizarre thing for someone to say, especially someone trying to promote menopause awareness in the workplace so women wouldn't be disadvantaged. She's a well known commentator on the topic, do we have very different interpretations of feminism?

I don't wish to be labelled or pigeonholed or to follow a particular political ideology and that is why I do not describe myself as a feminist.

Not everyone who's not a feminist is sexist. I expect it's more to reassure people whose main experience of feminism is being harangued and called names by people like yourself.

Tbh, if somebody positions feminism as a key point of their identity I usually assume they will be more sexist than the average woman, not less. That's based on my experience not written definitions.

@AlfonsoTheDinosaur

I don't wish to be labelled or pigeonholed or to follow a particular political ideology and that is why I do not describe myself as a feminist.

That is very succinctly put and I feel the same.

Why does it make you feel better to stick a label on yourself (that's to all those who do call themselves a feminist)?

Why do people bang on about 'labelling' as though it's a bad thing when they are referring to a label they personally don't like, and yet are mostly perfectly happy to 'label' themselves with descriptions they do like? 'Label' is used as a loaded term. 'Description' would be better.

If someone calls themselves a Buddhist or left-wing or a vegetarian, I don't say 'Why does it make you feel better to stick a label on yourself?' - those things are just descriptions of a particular aspect of that person. I don't go around announcing I am a feminist, or add it to my email signature, or wear a badge. The reason I would describe myself as a feminist (if asked) is quite simply that I believe in equal rights, opportunities and treatment for women. And that makes me a feminist, because that's what a feminist is.

@lazylinguist

Not being a feminist does not mean a person is a sexist or doesn't believe in political or legal equality.

Ok, genuine question - what does 'I am not a feminist' mean then, if it doesn't mean 'I don't believe in equal rights for women'? The only two things I can really think of that it could mean are 1) I am under the impression that 'feminist' means militant man-hating harpy who thinks women shouldn't wear make-up or be SAHMs, and I'm not like that or 2) I do believe in equal rights for women, but I know lots of people think feminists are militant man-hating harpies so I'm scared of calling myself one.

Completely agree with you and Harebright, LL.

Thanks, Elfton.

Further to my previous post, I also would not go and deliver a training session and announce that I was a feminist, or not a Buddhist, or not a vegetarian.

The whole idea of going in a professional capacity into a group of people I didn't know and completely unnecessarily and irrelevantly announcing "I'm not one of those people", when some of my audience are perfectly likely to be those people is just ridiculous and insensitive.

Definitely have no problem with people calling themselves feminists. I only ask that the same courtesy of being allowed to define or describe myself is granted to me, and that it's not assumed instead that I'm too stupid to know what I'm talking about. Describe yourself however you please and I will do the same.

Absolutely. I will describe myself as a feminist, in the knowledge that people will make assumptions about me on that basis.

@lazylinguist

Not being a feminist does not mean a person is a sexist or doesn't believe in political or legal equality.

Ok, genuine question - what does 'I am not a feminist' mean then, if it doesn't mean 'I don't believe in equal rights for women'? The only two things I can really think of that it could mean are 1) I am under the impression that 'feminist' means militant man-hating harpy who thinks women shouldn't wear make-up or be SAHMs, and I'm not like that or 2) I do believe in equal rights for women, but I know lots of people think feminists are militant man-hating harpies so I'm scared of calling myself one.

It could mean that they don't see their own ideas about women in society as really being in line with feminist thinking which really begins to coalesce in the 1960s.

It could mean they see feminism as a kind of specific activism directed to women's benefit in particular wheras they are more focused on equality - lots of feminists would make a point of saying the former doesn't count as feminism too.

They might be politically conservative, or not pro-choice enough, or think it's better for young kids to have mums at home, and have been given the impression that feminism doesn't accept those things.

The might feel that feminism wants them to have particular viewpoints on men and women being completely the same except their sex organs, which they don't agree with.

The might see feminism as being aligned with sex positivity, or they might feel it doesn't accept women who like the things they like or dress the way they dress.

Or something else. But those are all viewpoints held by a lot of women who don't think of them as sexist. Though of course if someone thinks they are inherently sexist ideas I suppose then maybe all women who don't identify with feminism are sexists. But in that case feminism really is an outlier position.

The last time I announced I was a feminist at a work thing, all the people I was with laughed hysterically and said I wasnt. The reasons given were i liked men, i was married, i liked babies and I wore skirts sometimes.
So id say a lot of people dont equate feminism with its dictionary definition.

Ok so basically lots of women don't think they are feminists because they don't really understand what the word means? Or because they ascribe definitions or attitudes to it, none of which apply to all feminists and some of which apply to very few feminists?

The reasons given were i liked men, i was married, i liked babies and I wore skirts sometimes.

How depressingly ignorant.

Do you not think that maybe calling women ignorant and implying they're stupid because they don't subscribe to the same political ideology as you might be a bit counterproductive?

It does seem to me that @HarebrightCedarmoon lives in a black-and-white world:

"If a trainer says "I am not a feminist" I sure as hell want to check whether they are either a) a bit thick, and misguided as to the definition of feminism, in which case I will merely be looking out for what rlse they might get wrong in the rest of the session or b) They are a raging sexist/misogynist who does not believe women are men's equals, in which case the session has no further relevance to me, and the trainer can get in the sea.

So, a woman who says that she is not a feminist is either (1) thick, misguided and must be corrected or (2) a raging sexist / misogynists who can get in the sea.

I would rather not be associated with people who hold those views as I find them abhorrent.

To be honest she sounds a bit stupid. Do you think she meant the more radical use of pronouns and people as opposed to women etc?? I think there are a lot of self styled menopause experts out there who are no such thing, least of all formally trained educators who should know better than to talk about their own potentially contentious views in training. I bet I can guess who it is.

We understand what the word means.
We choose not to describe ourselves as such for all the many reasons listed and probably more besides.

There does seem to be a running theme of “if you’re not a feminist, you must be stupid” which is delightful.

@LeaveYourHatOn that wasn't my meaning. I think (and obviously only drawing on OP) that she confused transfeminism for your straight up feminism thus making herself sound quite daft given the subject matter.

@lazylinguist

Ok so basically lots of women don't think they are feminists because they don't really understand what the word means? Or because they ascribe definitions or attitudes to it, none of which apply to all feminists and some of which apply to very few feminists?

The reasons given were i liked men, i was married, i liked babies and I wore skirts sometimes.

How depressingly ignorant.

In some cases that might be true, but no, not always.

The idea that this very simple dictionary definition of feminism really encompasses what it's about is not something everyone agrees with, and that is not coming from a place of ignorance. I'd almost be inclined to say the opposite, people who know more about feminism and it's historical development are less likely to say feminism is just about believing in equality.

@LeaveYourHatOn

There does seem to be a running theme of “if you’re not a feminist, you must be stupid” which is delightful.

Or a sexist / misogynist, which is equally lovely.

Or confused about the term really means, because we clearly haven't understood it properly.
Luckily we've got all these clever feminists to explain it to us

I think you can support women's issues without being too extreme, much like you can support environmental issues without sitting in the road stopping ambulances.

She's obviously entitled to her opinion and if she doesn't believe women should be equal to men that's her opinion. But if I was doing training and the trainer stated this I'd have to mention it in the feedback. Her views on feminism weren't relevant and it would have made me feel uncomfortable knowing her views on women.

@whichiswitch You don’t know her views on women; you know that she doesn’t call herself a feminist.
And unfortunately the OP can’t remember the context although from the sounds of it it was in some way related to the next comment that she (the trainer) made.