Menopause trainer "not a feminist"

[namechanging987]

I'm doing training this morning about menopause for managers. I've been impressed so far particularly because I was expecting "people" rather than women but that hasn't occurred. However, she stated during it "now I'm not a feminist" I can't remember the context exactly, something to do with the equality act, I just found this such a bizarre thing for someone to say, especially someone trying to promote menopause awareness in the workplace so women wouldn't be disadvantaged. She's a well known commentator on the topic, do we have very different interpretations of feminism?

Ask her which rights, won for her by feminists, she would like to give up then? The vote? Abortion? Equal pay? The right to own her own property? Freedom from marital rape? Maternity leave?
Because she surely doesn’t want to benefit from the activities of a group she disapproves of.

Indeed …

(But don’t ask her!)

I think lots of people, including women, don't think of themselves as feminists even when they believe the sexes should be equal. The word feminist goes in and out of fashion and the idea of "equality" and what that means for women changes too. There is a debate to be had (and we have it on this board from time to time) about what it is to be a feminist and who can really call themselves a feminist. I don't think that's really the problem with what happened.

The issue is, as a voice of authority speaking in an official capacity to a group of people (in a business setting?), saying "I'm not a feminist" has an added nuance of suggesting that considering yourself a feminist is not a good a thing (else why try and distance yourself?). It helps shore up the idea that people who do say things like "as a feminist, I'm really shocked at the lack of women on the board" are really just over reacting and shrewish.

If someone in the same setting said "I'm not a supporter of disability rights activism" when they were training people on how to communicate with better with deaf people, or "I don't support Black Lives Matter" (as controversial as they can be) when training people on how to be more inclusive of black people in an official setting, then that might, rightly, make some people with the protected characteristic the training is supposed to be helping feel less comfortable. It might also make those who are not inclined to think we should go out of our way to treat women/disabled people/Black people equally to feel they were vindicated in their views and the training was just lip service.

There may be an argument that the phrase makes those who aren't behind women's equality more receptive rather than less. E.G. Makes them think "this isn't really about feminism it's just about health". I think that's unlikely, but even if true, because the trainings are not targeted just at those who aren't feminist supporters, it's still going to have a negative impact on those who are.

My whole life I've met women/ teens who feel the need to state 'I'm not a feminist' when no one had asked.

It's totally inappropriate for a person in to do workplace training on anything really. To come out with that.

Esp in training targeting women!

Was there a feedback form/ online one? Put it there. I don't think complaining to training procurement would do anything.

That would really piss me off.

I'm in peri.
I'm a lifelong feminist.
What is her point? Esp as it's a thing guaranteed to usually get one or more backs up. Esp in that context.

The trainer is perfectly entitled to her views, but I’d also feel uncomfortable hearing this from someone delivering training about this subject. It’s entirely possible she’s very pro-women’s rights but does not like the label for whatever reason. But it’s at least as likely that she is one of those women who wants to be seen as nice to men, who think feminism ‘has gone too far’ and all the rest of it. Menopause training from someone with that mindset is not something I’d be interested in. And because there was no clarification, I’d be left puzzling about it and probably be thoroughly distracted.

Given that feminism seems to embrace everything and nothing these days, it was at the very least unprofessional that she didn’t stop to think that people may interpret the comment as being unsupportive of women’s rights.

It would be like attending diversity training and the trainer declaring they were not an anti-racist. There are a whole range of reasons someone may say this since anti-racism is another term construed in different ways, but making a bald statement begs the question why.

I had a female colleague say to me "at least your not a feminist"! I was so shocked - my feminism is one of the absolute cornerstones of who I am and the choices I make in life. She was baffled as to why anyone would want to be associated with feminism at all.

Could the people on this thread who feel they are not a feminist explain what they mean by that? What do they see as extreme feminists? Genuinely interested.
For me it would be like someone saying ‘well I’m not exactly a black rights activist’ even if you didn’t do anything to promote the rights of black peoples to deliberately distance yourself feels like your saying you don’t want black people to have rights.

Well, I have far more reservations about abortion than your average feminist. I believe it should be legal to a certain point, and I certainly don't align myself with the pro-life groups in the US (whose regard for life doesn't seem to extend to those who die in foreign wars or because of lax gun laws, and who don't seem to believe in freely available contraception, better neonatal healthcare or maternity leave, all of which would contribute to a lower rate of abortion or infant mortality).

However, because of my views, I believe many feminists would definitely consider that I am not a feminist. Therefore, I hesitate to apply the label to myself, although I would say I have conventionally feminist beliefs in almost every other area.

By the same token, I would not say that I am not a feminist.

@WeRTheOnesWeHaveBeenWaitingFor

Because it's a vague, wishy-washy term that doesn't actually mean anything. Everyone can define "feminist" for themselves; in its broadest sense, it means equality and rights of women, but those two terms already exist. The endless debates on what is and isn't feminist are imo pointless and make the term ultimately pretty meaningless.

I don't think saying "I'm not a feminist" is at allthe same as saying "I don't support women's rights", or "I'm not anti-racist" etc.

Whether it was appropriate in the context of the OP's training session is unclear, because @namechanging987 can't remember the context, although it was "something to do with the equality act"; it may well have been relevant.

Or it might have been to negate any negative connotations that the word "feminist" has.
Most women don't identify themselves as a feminist.
www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47006912

The question I'd ask is why she made this statement during the training session. What was its purpose, as part of the session? What were you supposed to gain from it, that aided your understanding of the topic she was teaching?

The bottom line is that it's very unprofessional for the trainer to have stated this.

1. It was not relevant to the topic

1. It is a personal view and good trainers deal in facts/ variety of expert views etc. If a topic with diverse opinions etc they leave room for attendees to discuss, to they maintain neutrality, and moderate discussion carefully and subtly. To stop antagonism etc.

1. Menopause roomful of women. It's not like she said I like marmite. I'm not a feminist is a statement that has a lot going on with it esp in roomful of women. Potentially alienating some.

If you do anything internally, thinking about it.

I'd go with non specific. Don't get into specifics. Just say things like.

The training was welcomed welcome. Well attended got a lot out of it.

However in future it would be good to use a different trainer.

Reasons- things like- erm ...

Didn't seem to consider audience on occasions while delivering

Introduced personal opinions on unrelated topics during the session

At times felt like having essentially captive audience led to going off topic on own opinions rather than remaining neutral and leaving any discussions to attendees, with trainer moderating

And leave it at that.

In very unlikely event they ask detail. Just say. I felt uncomfortable at certain points due to things personal to me that I'd rather not discuss.

??

Id have probably asked her about the comment during the meeting, or when time for questions or comments would have chirped 'as a feminist....' before my comment

[quote LeaveYourHatOn]@WeRTheOnesWeHaveBeenWaitingFor

Because it's a vague, wishy-washy term that doesn't actually mean anything. Everyone can define "feminist" for themselves; in its broadest sense, it means equality and rights of women, but those two terms already exist. The endless debates on what is and isn't feminist are imo pointless and make the term ultimately pretty meaningless.

I don't think saying "I'm not a feminist" is at allthe same as saying "I don't support women's rights", or "I'm not anti-racist" etc.

Whether it was appropriate in the context of the OP's training session is unclear, because @namechanging987 can't remember the context, although it was "something to do with the equality act"; it may well have been relevant.

Or it might have been to negate any negative connotations that the word "feminist" has.
Most women don't identify themselves as a feminist.
www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47006912[/quote]
Yes.

If so many women, many of whom completely support equality, don't want to use the word feminist for themselves, then maybe they see it as implying something else besides just that.

I've more than once seen women on FWR tell some casual poster that she's entirely wrong, that feminism is not about believing in or fighting for equality, and maybe she should call herself an equalist.

I've also seen women here say that only people on the political left can be feminists, so that is right away cutting out quite a lot of women. Or that men cannot be feminists.

How does that relate to this trainer coming out with that though?

And imo and experience.

There's no set of rules you have to follow to say or feel you're a feminist.

There's a huge range of views. I can't personally understand how women who think 'sex work' esp selling sex is awesome and empowering etc.

But arguing over labels is pointless.

And I've been on really hardcore groups online and my god they have massive rows constantly and split into other groups etc. Left wing standard.

I think what I think and think that with or without a label.

What I DO know is that plenty of women I've met have randomly said 'I'M NOT A FEMINIST' for no apparent reason. When talking about. Bars or a work project or what shall we have for lunch.

And that has always been a pointed statement. Always.

The trainer saying that in middle of menopause session apropos of nothing is.. Yeah I'd be wtf too.

@NiceGerbil

How does that relate to this trainer coming out with that though?

We don't know. The point is that saying she isn't a feminist really doesn't tell us that she is in any way indifferent to women's issues. Especially since the OP doesn't remember what the context was.

There could be any number of reasons she doesn't really see herself that way, lots, even most, women don't. And probably not because they are all too stupid to get it, or want to please men, or are handmaidens.

It's nothing like a person giving a presentation about accessibility saying they don't support disability rights, which would seem odd and I imagine be worthy or further comment. I have in fact seen black presenters about race issues be quite negative about the anti-racism movement or BLM so maybe that's not quite so straightforward as some people think either.

People don't need to blather everything at work but by the same token adults should be able to deal with other adults saying things they find surprising or disagree with when it happens to come up at work without needing to crawl into a safe space.

The trainer saying that in middle of menopause session apropos of nothing is.

It wasn't, though. The OP does not remember what it was related to which is not the same.

I wouldn't mention it in a feedback form, it would piss me off so much that I'd bring it up as a direct challenge to her face during the session. I'd have had my hand up as soon as she said "I'm not a feminist, but..."

The topic was menopause.

OP can't quite remember but found it 'bizarre'.

In my experience sometimes women do state that at random.

And yes IME it does mean something.

If the trainer had come out with-

Speaking as a feminist
Or anything similar. On a topic which is not related and with the captive audience of people come to learn ..

I'm not into environmental things but

I'm not a trade unionist/ royalist / animal lover. Etc etc Anything which expresses a personal view about a potentially divisive topic.

It's inappropriate.

Not least because even if that was the topic. Good trainers when there's a discussion involved, raise it neutrally, remain neutral and moderate with subtlety.

That's their job, workplace trainers.

I mean on stuff not day job.

Day job of course they are more teacher/ student and opinions.

Although I can't see there's that many jobs where hands on training would make saying 'I'm not a feminist' relevant!

But OP's point (if I've understood her post correctly) wasn't that the comment wasn't appropriate in the context, it's she thinks it's bizarre that the trainer doesn't consider herself a feminist:

I can't remember the context exactly, something to do with the equality act, I just found this such a bizarre thing for someone to say, especially someone trying to promote menopause awareness in the workplace so women wouldn't be disadvantaged. She's a well known commentator on the topic, do we have very different interpretations of feminism?

I think we just have to assume that it was in some way relevant to what she was talking about, and that she - like SO MANY WOMEN - doesn't call herself a feminist.

I’d never describe myself as a feminist. Not everyone does. You can broadly agree with ideas without labelling yourself.

There is a difference between not stating you're a feminist and actually stating that you're not one though. If you believe in equal rights for women and men, then you are a feminist, whether you like calling yourself one or not. Because that's what feminist means. Similarly - I do not believe in god. It doesn't matter whether I choose to label myself an atheist or not - I still am one!

To he fair, women don't have to be feminists to care about other women. Feminism is broadly a political ideology, it's not as simple as "wants equality of the sexes". I don't call myself a feminist any more because of that reason. I still stand up to sexism wherever I can.

I agree. Plus, the trainer may want to avoid accusations of being a terf as if she says she's not a feminist by definition she can't be a terf.

Let her get on with job and allow her to leave her politics to one side.

It dismays me that the same people who claim that they support free speech allow it only when it tallies with their views.