Menopause trainer "not a feminist"

[namechanging987]

I'm doing training this morning about menopause for managers. I've been impressed so far particularly because I was expecting "people" rather than women but that hasn't occurred. However, she stated during it "now I'm not a feminist" I can't remember the context exactly, something to do with the equality act, I just found this such a bizarre thing for someone to say, especially someone trying to promote menopause awareness in the workplace so women wouldn't be disadvantaged. She's a well known commentator on the topic, do we have very different interpretations of feminism?

I don't subscribe to that definition, either, because it is an oversimplification and addresses neither feminism's various waves nor schools of thought / approaches.

Well, it's a dictionary, not an encyclopaedia, of course it will be simplified. It's a terrible shame that women are afraid to own a word meaning striving for equality for women. The patriarchy seems to have won out in their portrayal of feminists as strident, man-hating, feminazis, etc. I don't care if people think that of me, or if I'm deemed "obnoxious" for having a perfectly civilised online debate, or for doing so in real life. Guess I must have touched a raw nerve.

You're not listening @HarebrightCedarmoon. No-one is expressing fear about the word. They are saying they don't call themselves feminists because they're not or because it's too ambiguous or too complex to convey their views, or because they don't want to be associated with certain political dogma.

I'm not sure how you have come to the conclusion that you should be the arbiter of what feminism is or why you think that it's okay for you to patronise and call women names when they disagree with you. I find it extremely arrogant and obnoxious and does not make me want to come over to your side.

Arrogant
Obnoxious
So-called arbiter of feminism
Sexist
Patronising

You seem to be the one dishing out name-calling and ad hominem attacks in the last few posts, @beastlyslumber. A disappointing low level of online debate.

This board, in fact, most of this site has been a real eye-opener for me, and I like to think that I have learnt a bit, and to challenge some of my own thinking and understanding.

Speaking honestly though, I think my problem with the word Feminist is in the last three letters.

For a word that's supposed to mean equality, most other "ist" / "ism" words suggest the exact opposite.

For a word that's supposed to mean equality, most other "ist" / "ism" words suggest the exact opposite.

An -ism is just a movement, philosophy or system, there's nothing inherently bad about them. Pacifism, hunanitarianism, heroism, stoicism etc. Quite a few are artistic movements.

Sometimes people just want to reassure you that they're not coming from a dogmatic ideological viewpoint, that they are speaking to every woman, not just those who subscribe to a particular set of political views

Whilst I understand why someone might feel that way, by saying "I am not a feminist", you still risk giving the impression that you have a particular set of views - i.e. views which align with women not being equal to men.

Yes, quite @lazylinguist.

@HarebrightCedarmoon

Arrogant Obnoxious So-called arbiter of feminism Sexist Patronising

You seem to be the one dishing out name-calling and ad hominem attacks in the last few posts, @beastlyslumber. A disappointing low level of online debate.

Hmmm. So you're one of those.

Well, I think anyone can scroll back, read our exchange in context, and make up their own minds. So let's leave it there.

I'm sure they will.

@lazylinguist

Sometimes people just want to reassure you that they're not coming from a dogmatic ideological viewpoint, that they are speaking to every woman, not just those who subscribe to a particular set of political views

Whilst I understand why someone might feel that way, by saying "I am not a feminist", you still risk giving the impression that you have a particular set of views - i.e. views which align with women not being equal to men.

I agree that's a risk. But it depends on the context, really. I've said it myself but the context or explanation will have made it clear that it's not intended as an anti-women or even anti-feminist statement.

@HarebrightCedarmoon

I'm sure they will.

I have. And you don't come across well at all, @HarebrightCedarmoon. Your posts are aggressive and obnoxious.

One of the main purposes of menopause training in a workplace is surely to reduce sexism towards women who are going through the menopause

Is it? Surely it's to give advice to both employers and employees on how to handle the health related implications of menopause which might possibly affect some female employees. I don't think that's exactly the same as reducing sexism.

The dictionary definition of "feminism" has been cited- I'm sure many men would have no quarrel with agreeing with the principles in that dictionary definition but the usual collective wisdom on here is men can't be feminists.

Harebright, I think you my find that your definition of feminism is somewhat antiquated compared to what most on here believe it to be. Namely, "the liberation of women".

"The equality of men and women" implies that feminists would theoretically be prepared to fight for the rights of men should they fall behind those of women, so I sometimes wonder if this is why a new classification has been adopted in recent times with there now being a fair few areas where men suffer the worst (suicide, education, assault, lifespan, etc).

@lazylinguist

Sometimes people just want to reassure you that they're not coming from a dogmatic ideological viewpoint, that they are speaking to every woman, not just those who subscribe to a particular set of political views

Whilst I understand why someone might feel that way, by saying "I am not a feminist", you still risk giving the impression that you have a particular set of views - i.e. views which align with women not being equal to men.

It's awfully picky though. It sounds like it was just a casual comment.

Do we really want people having to consider every little thing they might say as an offhand comment because the lack of ideological purity might offend someone or rub them the wrong way?

I'm not sure I can think of many things worse than that.

It's not "my" definition, it's a dictionary one, pretty standard to all dictionaries. Some people on this thread want to make up their own personal definitions though and it seems to be rather a personal and upsetting subject for them, for whatever reason.

I am a feminist and proudly so, regardless of that makes others think of me or what personal definitions they choose to make up about that word. And one woman's "aggressive and obnoxious" is another's assertive and plain-speaking. Such slurs directed towards women/other women quite a common element of internalised/outright misogyny, unfortunately.

Do we really want people having to consider every little thing they might say as an offhand comment because the lack of ideological purity might offend someone or rub them the wrong way?

No, I totally agree with you that pandering to ideological purity is bad. However, this was such an unnecessary thing for her to say, and frankly a bit tone deaf considering her topic and audience. There are all kinds of opinions we should all have a right to express, but there are times and places for doing so.

@lazylinguist

Do we really want people having to consider every little thing they might say as an offhand comment because the lack of ideological purity might offend someone or rub them the wrong way?

No, I totally agree with you that pandering to ideological purity is bad. However, this was such an unnecessary thing for her to say, and frankly a bit tone deaf considering her topic and audience. There are all kinds of opinions we should all have a right to express, but there are times and places for doing so.

I just don't think it's something to get het up about. It could have meant all kinds of things, and the OP doesn't even remember the context.

The assumption that somehow we can assume she's a sexist as a result of that comment is pretty crazy. The fact is less than half of women in the UK think of themselves as feminists, it's by no means something that should be a surprise if someone doesn't.

Aside from that, people say things and we think "gee, I wonder what she means by that" but usually it's just not that big a deal. It's not worth fussing over or people feeling like they have to be careful of every statement they make in case they offend someone which just makes for a kind of toxic workplace.

@HarebrightCedarmoon

It's not "my" definition, it's a dictionary one, pretty standard to all dictionaries. Some people on this thread want to make up their own personal definitions though and it seems to be rather a personal and upsetting subject for them, for whatever reason.

I am a feminist and proudly so, regardless of that makes others think of me or what personal definitions they choose to make up about that word. And one woman's "aggressive and obnoxious" is another's assertive and plain-speaking. Such slurs directed towards women/other women quite a common element of internalised/outright misogyny, unfortunately.

I don't think you quite get this.

If you want to use that definition for yourself, feel free. That does not mean that other people who might take a more holistic approach to the term will, and you can't judge them on the assumption that they are. Not being a feminist does not mean a person is a sexist or doesn't believe in political or legal equality. If you assume that is what they mean when they say they aren't a feminsit, you are very likely to be incorrect.

Yep. Still not changing my mind with the posts that I described as obnoxious and aggressive, @HarebrightCedarmoon, to which I would now add "rigid and ideological".

And please note that I use those terms to describe your posts and not you, as you imply.

Not being a feminist does not mean a person is a sexist or doesn't believe in political or legal equality.

Ok, genuine question - what does 'I am not a feminist' mean then, if it doesn't mean 'I don't believe in equal rights for women'? The only two things I can really think of that it could mean are 1) I am under the impression that 'feminist' means militant man-hating harpy who thinks women shouldn't wear make-up or be SAHMs, and I'm not like that or 2) I do believe in equal rights for women, but I know lots of people think feminists are militant man-hating harpies so I'm scared of calling myself one.

Why don't you read up the thread? There have been lots of suggestions as to why someone might say they're not a feminist.

I have read all of the thread. It's ridiculous to think that all feminists have identical political views. Someone who believes in god, believes Jesus was the son of god and believes in the Bible's teachings is a christian, whether or not they agree with Catholic dogma or creationism. I understand why someone might not want to admit to being a feminist (or indeed a Christian), possibly depending on the company they're in.

I don't think all feminists have identical views- I'm not the one who posted the dictionary definition! One of the reasons I'm not a feminist is precisely because it is such an ever-shifting set of ideas, with different waves, approaches and ideologies. You can be a Marxist feminist, a radical feminist, a Liberal feminist, an intersectional feminist - and all those feminists are quite fond of claiming to be the only real feminists. Another reason is that I don't fully subscribe to any of those ideologies. Some of my opinions don't fit anywhere in feminism. I think men and women are different and that some sex roles are probably natural, for example. I don't really care about issues of representation for another thing. I'm not afraid of the word. I am just not a feminist. I used to be, but not anymore. I feel feminism had a detrimental effect on my life.

I do find it weird how this is unacceptable to some people. I'm entitled to my views views. I'm not scared or stupid - I just have a different opinion on this.

"I am a feminist" doesn't really mean anything - it depends on who is saying it and who is listening. It doesn't have any accepted policies or ideas or ideologies or anything, beyond "men and women are equal" - and even then you will have arguments about what that should mean exactly in practice.
Why does it make you feel better to stick a label on yourself (that's to all those who do call themselves a feminist)? Why do you have to call it something?
I support children's and animal rights, I am against racism, disablism and ageism....but I don't need to label myself anything. If and when it ever comes up it will be obvious from my words and actions what I believe.