Menopause trainer "not a feminist"

[namechanging987]

I'm doing training this morning about menopause for managers. I've been impressed so far particularly because I was expecting "people" rather than women but that hasn't occurred. However, she stated during it "now I'm not a feminist" I can't remember the context exactly, something to do with the equality act, I just found this such a bizarre thing for someone to say, especially someone trying to promote menopause awareness in the workplace so women wouldn't be disadvantaged. She's a well known commentator on the topic, do we have very different interpretations of feminism?

Sometimes people just want to reassure you that they're not coming from a dogmatic ideological viewpoint, that they are speaking to every woman, not just those who subscribe to a particular set of political views

I really think this is the reason.

I think a lot of people see it as a political stance and like to detach themselves from politics.

Yes. That is me. Thank you for putting it so well.

@LeaveYourHatOn Because "page cannot be found". Very succinct.

@UsedUpUsername

Sometimes people just want to reassure you that they're not coming from a dogmatic ideological viewpoint, that they are speaking to every woman, not just those who subscribe to a particular set of political views

I really think this is the reason.

But then why feel the need to mention it at all in a training session about the menopause? You can make it clear that you are representing all women in what you do and say. Or not. I've had people say they are feminists when they are definitely not. But why make a point of saying you aren't one?

@EdmontinaDonsAutumnalHues

But, in a workplace, one can speak to every woman without declaring one’s own possibly distracting views.

By sharing her opinion in that particular work environment that trainer would have ensured that she was not delivering her training in an effective way to me. And, I repeat, she is perfectly free to hold whatever views she chooses - in her private life.

Yes, just so.

But why make a point of saying you aren't one?

Maybe to reassure people that what you are about to say is coming from an evidence or experience base rather than a political or ideological one? I don't see the need to make a big deal of it, but she probably would have explained more if OP had asked. Or maybe it would have made more sense in context (which OP can't remember).

To reassure people who are sexist? Well that's nice, we wouldn't want them to feel at all uncomfortable. One of the main purposes of menopause training in a workplace is surely to reduce sexism towards women who are going through the menopause.

It's like turning up to diversity training and reassuring the racists in the room that they don't need to worry about anything. They do need to worry, that's the whole point.

Not everyone who's not a feminist is sexist. I expect it's more to reassure people whose main experience of feminism is being harangued and called names by people like yourself.

Do you believe women are equal to men and deserve equality, @beastlyslumber?

Yes I do. As do the vast, vast majority of people. I don't call myself a feminist though, and I'd thank you not to give me a label I do not want. You are welcome to your politics and ideology, but trying to impose it on other people is not okay. It really does a disservice to your cause.

Way I see it, it's like a man not wanting to call himself an MRA, even if he is involved in activism around men's rights (custody etc). He is technically an 'MRA' but the phrase carries different connotations.

My version of equality includes my perspective as a woman of color, which makes white women more than just victims of sexism but perpetrators in their own right. And that is, let’s say unpopular, with many white feminists. Never mind the rest of my views. So even though I believe in equality I’m much more likely to be called a handmaiden, cool wife, divisive, and traitor than a feminist. Saying if you believe in equality then you’re a feminist is not accurate. Both sides have wildly different opinions on what equal looks like and disparage the ones who don’t agree with them.

I don't see it that way at all. I don't call myself a feminist, even if you stick a label on me and decide that I am whether I like it or not. The same way I refuse to label myself 'cis' despite what some may insist they think they know about me. I'm entitled to decide my own political opinions and I think it's arrogant to tell others what they really think and believe or what they really are. You don't know better than me about my own views, sorry, and you can't force me to identify the same way you do.

I've had plenty of people tell me I'm NOT a feminist. So maybe those who think I am and those who think I'm not should get together and fight it out between you, and leave me out of it.

I genuinely think this is a big part of the reason why women don't call themselves feminists. Who the hell wants to be harrassed over their perfectly reasonable views? Compared to racists and MRAs because they won't label themselves the way you think they should? What difference does it even make to anyone else whether me or any other woman calls herself a feminist or not?

Back in the 90s I worked with someone older than me who was adamant they weren't a feminist and horrified at the thought of being one. They were a single mother who had separated from their child's father while pregnant. I pointed out that the only reason they were able to do that is because feminists fought for equal pay for women, the ability for women to keep their jobs after becoming pregnant or having babies, and the single mothers pension. They still thought feminism was a bad thing.

the 'I don't see it that way' was in response to @KayKayWat*

Back in the 90s I wouldn’t have called myself a feminist, the reason being that at the time many feminists I’d met since the 1970s were busy denying biology, for example, telling me that my PMT/PMDD and postnatal psychosis were nothing to do with hormones and that if I said they were to do with my female body I’d be betraying women by admitting they were inferior to men in some way.
My daughter got the same spiel from a mental health professional in the early 2000s, so it persisted.

@beastlyslumber

I don't see it that way at all. I don't call myself a feminist, even if you stick a label on me and decide that I am whether I like it or not. The same way I refuse to label myself 'cis' despite what some may insist they think they know about me. I'm entitled to decide my own political opinions and I think it's arrogant to tell others what they really think and believe or what they really are. You don't know better than me about my own views, sorry, and you can't force me to identify the same way you do.

I've had plenty of people tell me I'm NOT a feminist. So maybe those who think I am and those who think I'm not should get together and fight it out between you, and leave me out of it.

I genuinely think this is a big part of the reason why women don't call themselves feminists. Who the hell wants to be harrassed over their perfectly reasonable views? Compared to racists and MRAs because they won't label themselves the way you think they should? What difference does it even make to anyone else whether me or any other woman calls herself a feminist or not?

I agree with much of this.

I share a lot of fairly typical views and have a fair few times been told I'm a feminist. But for me the difference is often less in the definition than in the culture.

So an example would be that I share the view that male violence is a big issue but I'm not solely focused on women. A lot of feminists seem to believe that the police should prioritise their focus on making women feel safer when walking around at night, and when people point out that men are at much greater risk they say "well, I'm focused on women" etc. Personally I share their concerns about women but not above all other demographics.

I feel that always positioning women first is a bit like campaigning against racism faced by white people and then defending it with "Well, I'm white and I prioritise white people". It's fine to care more about one issue but I think it's different when you start actively arguing that it should be positioned above other issues.

I realise that this is an unpopular views amongst feminists which is why I don't identify as one and usually only lurk rather than actively post.

When I have voiced the above view in the past it has often been met with very sarcastic responses and "won't somebody think of the poor men" etc. I must admit this has only served to further distance me.

@KayKayWat

When I have voiced the above view in the past it has often been met with very sarcastic responses and "won't somebody think of the poor men" etc. I must admit this has only served to further distance me.

I agree kkw I think there's some pressure to voice certain viewpoints and treat some ideas as sacrosanct. The sarcastic, patronising or aggressive comments sometimes made to those who disagree often seem a bit unnecessary to me. I'm happy to talk things out but don't assume that anyone who thinks differently from me must be stupid or evil. If someone is espousing a pov I find offensive then I'll argue, but someone saying "I disagree because..." seems like a good thing to me.

I suppose any ideology will attract some rigid thinkers, though, and will be vulnerable to group think. It doesn't invalidate the ideology but it will obviously alienate people who disagree and push them further rather than bringing them in.

@beastlyslumber

Yes I do. As do the vast, vast majority of people. I don't call myself a feminist though, and I'd thank you not to give me a label I do not want. You are welcome to your politics and ideology, but trying to impose it on other people is not okay. It really does a disservice to your cause.

It's not politics and ideology, but semantics. A basic misunderstanding of a dictionary definition. It's a shame you are so afraid of what other people think.

I genuinely think this is a big part of the reason why women don't call themselves feminists. Who the hell wants to be harrassed over their perfectly reasonable views? Compared to racists and MRAs because they won't label themselves the way you think they should? What difference does it even make to anyone else whether me or any other woman calls herself a feminist or not?

This is not all that different in the end than certain types of anti-racist thinking based on CT, where if you don't agree with that ideological scaffolding adherents will call you a racist. Because in their view, that is the only real way to not be a racist, and in fact by saying you don't agree with it you are proving you are a racist. So you having someone like Adolph Reed, an academic who specializes in race issues, a marxist, a cilivil rights activist, and himself a black man who grew up in the American South under Jim Crow laws - but he doesn't get on board with the current id politics BLM movement and so he is called a racist and a bigot.

The whole thing is completely foolish.

I am on a hobby board with a lot of women who are conservative Americans, and they all believe in the equality of women, many of them work, etc, and some used to consider themselves feminists. They generally don't any more, because they've been told off for having the wrong views on what women's rights mean, or voting the wrong way. So now they don't bother and tend to look on it very much as an ideology which sees them as not the right kind of woman.

Oh leave it out @HarebrightCedarmoon. You are being obnoxious. I don't care what people think about my politics, but I care very much that I should be allowed to decide them for myself. I don't think you have the right to tell me what to think just because I'm female. If I'm honest, I consider that quite a sexist attitude. Women are individual humans, not representatives of a shared ideology.

It's not politics and ideology, but semantics. A basic misunderstanding of a dictionary definition. It's a shame you are so afraid of what other people think.

That isn't how dictionary definitions work. You really can't use them to prove the meaning of a word like feminism. Most dictionaries give you a very simplified basic sense of what a word is about, often less than a sentence, based on responses of regular people asked to give their view. In some cases where there is a more technical meaning or lots of historical content regular dictionary definitions can be positively misleading.

Just because you feel you want to call yourself a feminist based on a simple definition like that does not mean that other women, who see it in terms of a political ideology, or philosophical position, or a particular historical movement, are sexists.

And I don't actually subscribe to the definition you posted. We would have to agree what is meant by "power" there for starters.

www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47006912
No idea why the previous link didn't work.

Anyway, I still think it's marvellous that right here in this discussion we can see such fantastic examples of why many women don't call themselves a feminist. I hope this is helpful to you, OP.

The menopause trainer may have simply been trying to distance herself from those sorts of associations. As a pp post it:

Sometimes people just want to reassure you that they're not coming from a dogmatic ideological viewpoint, that they are speaking to every woman, not just those who subscribe to a particular set of political views