Late night thoughts... women changing surnames after marriage

[FatJan]

Not sure if this is the right board as I'm not fully sure where I'm going with this yet! Feels vaguely right, but happy for it to be moved.

Basically, I was scrolling through social media this evening and clicked on a post from a girl I knew at school which had got lots of comments.

As I scrolled down the post, I saw a load of comments from women whose names I didn't recognise.

I thought it was a bit strange I didn't recognise/couldn't remember who they were because the post was about something that happened at the school, and they were all talking as if they'd been there.

Suddenly I realised that I did actually know all of the women - they were all girls from our year.

I hadn't realised because they've all got married and now have their husbands' surnames.

It gave me a weird and not particularly pleasant feeling.

I haven't followed these ladies' lives over the years as they weren't in my close friendship circle, but I remember them well and how they were as children and teenagers.

Something about the fact that the identities they had when they were young no longer exist (on paper anyway) and they all have their husbands' names now made me feel a bit upset, which surprised me.

I'm trying to explore that feeling and I thought writing it down/sharing it might be a good place to start.

Obviously being happily married isn't a bad thing, so I think it's more the (perceived) loss of old identity thing that has given me a jolt, probably linked to the fact that men get to keep theirs.

I think it was also related to the fact it wasn't just one woman with a new name, it was the entire friendship group. It made it seem like the 'thing' to do, and I suppose it is, although I'm not sure how I feel about that. Some of the girls were very outspoken feminist types and to see them all as wives now with their husbands' name was a bit unexpected.

To be honest, I've been very in-my-head with the Sarah and Sabina cases and the ongoing discussions around things women go through that men don't, and this might be impacting the way I responded emotionally to that particular post.

Does the above make sense at all? Has anyone noticed or felt something similar?

My family name is my means of identifying myself; it's also my family name and tied in with my family history, for better or worse. What else is it, then, but my identity? Names are important. I've published under my own name and don't want to discard that to tie my very identity in with that of a different family with whom I don't share that history.

My name is my name as much as my brother's is his. It's belonged to both of us since birth and my brother will go through life without anyone even questioning this. My name is not on loan to me because I happen to have been born female. When I married I continued to use the family name I've used all my life; it would never even have occurred to me to relinquish it. Certain other people (MiL) refuse to respect this and rudely persist in referring to me as Mrs Hisname.

The courtesy of our own name is not too much to ask. As far as I'm concerned other women can call themselves what they choose, but the term 'maiden name' really makes my hackles rise. It's repulsive that a name should be viewed as a marker of someone's sexual status (and yes, this is the meaning of the word 'maiden'). Gruesome.

But @Mommabear20 why did your husband not change his name to yours and create a sequel identity. Why did it have to be you?

I've said it before but "maiden name"?

Really? I think that shows exactly how much thought was given to the "choice"

I don’t have and never had a "maiden name". My husband didn't have a "male virgin name"

I think the thing that bothers me is so many are framing it as a choice they made. A free will choice and something they wanted to do.
100% this.

It’s not that I expect women who have changed their names to say ‘I am a subservient women to male partriarchy’ or anything. But framing this as an unbiased choice which has nothing to do with being a man or a woman is just a lie.

Some people have posted some more honest answers, such as it was just easier, or it mattered to the father, or that they wanted to feel part of a family and one even said it was her new identity as wife and mother.

Ugh, people are so critical of other women’s choices on this thread. Aren't we all allowed to do what we want, or can we only confirm to what some people believe is the “right” thing to do? We have to be dictated to by them?

Forget that. I changed my surname to my husband’s because I WANTED to, it’s MY choice and no one else can tell me not to. I like the name far more than my original surname.😄

@MarieIVanArkleStinks I think it’s very interesting, on this thread and with your MIL - that is often the women who are most defensive and upholding that a woman’s identity must become her husbands in terms of her name. I wonder why that is, genuinely? Is it because it was so important at one time for financial and social standing? As unmarried mothers kept their names and their childrens - but that was seen as a sign that they were not ‘looked after’ under a man’s umbrella as it were.

Interesting

I’d say it’s a 50/50 split among my friends so it wasn’t simply social conditioning, we all made our own choices ( we’re mid-40’s-early 50’s).

I am more bothered by the whole Miss, Mrs, Ms thing. Men are Mr for life. Women have to publicly display their status.

@NCBlossom

I think the thing that bothers me is so many are framing it as a choice they made. A free will choice and something they wanted to do. 100% this.

It’s not that I expect women who have changed their names to say ‘I am a subservient women to male partriarchy’ or anything. But framing this as an unbiased choice which has nothing to do with being a man or a woman is just a lie.

Some people have posted some more honest answers, such as it was just easier, or it mattered to the father, or that they wanted to feel part of a family and one even said it was her new identity as wife and mother.

Or perhaps people prefer the name, have a negative association to their own ie abusive family, for them 'tradition' works- I hate the notion that women are incapable of making any decisions as obviously they are solely influenced by society. Of course that does play a big part, and for some will be the deciding factor ie it's just the done thing; but for many it's a conscious choice, weighed up against other options and something they want to do. Women get judged all of the time for everything, this is just another thing to add to the list.

@Aroundtheworldin80moves

I am more bothered by the whole Miss, Mrs, Ms thing. Men are Mr for life. Women have to publicly display their status.

That’s a good point. I’m known as “Ms. Smith,” I think only older ladies use “Mrs” where I live.

@Robotbot but if that were the case, that it was an ‘equal’ choice, with both man and woman sitting down and saying ‘whose name should we change, or shall we just keep ours and for the children we will toss a coin’? It’s not an equal choice. Men rarely change their names. Children rarely take the woman’s name.

It’s like if no woman ever worked or went to college, and all women then said ‘but its’ MY choice’ and so ‘all you other women suggesting that it might not be my choice are putting me down’!

This is probably why things often stay the same. Anyone suggesting that a woman’s choice may be because of a patriarchy, is met with a lot of defensiveness and attacks from other women.

It’s OK to change your name as a woman. It’s not really OK to insist that you were not influenced by cultural tradition and patriarchy. And really, really not OK to have a go at any woman pointing this out! No wonder patriarchy survives, women just have a go at other women for just discussing this aspect of patriarchy!

@NCBlossom, I agree. I have various theories about this and they don't only relate to the patriarchal naming system but also to issues like SOHM vs. WOHM, breast vs. bottle, etc. I've seen the issue of paid and domestic labour cause huge ructions both on MN and off it: almost as though making certain choices according to personal preference and need is a gratuitous insult against those who made different choices. As to those who argue that men don't do this and simply don't give a sod how other men organise their lives, this is because our society is structured in such a way that they don't have to concern themselves with this.

The whole argument is a treadmill to nowhere.

In response to this statement:

Or perhaps people prefer the name, have a negative association to their own ie abusive family, for them 'tradition' works- I hate the notion that women are incapable of making any decisions as obviously they are solely influenced by society

Out of interest, my own father was an abusive SOB with whom I have no desire to maintain any form of connection. But my name is mine, he doesn't have a monopoly on it. Out of interest, it was my brother who wanted to switch family names to my mother's and eventually decided not to; instead, we decided we'd try to bring better connotations to both our history and the name that defines it, and it was within our own power to shape better lives.

I get that it's personal choice (not, BTW, the aims and intentions of feminism at all, but something that's a bonus and can happen as a consequence of these). But I don't have to chuck away an identity that's rightfully mine just because Dear Ole Daddy was an arsehole.

@Cameleongirl

Ugh, people are so critical of other women’s choices on this thread. Aren't we all allowed to do what we want, or can we only confirm to what some people believe is the “right” thing to do? We have to be dictated to by them?

Forget that. I changed my surname to my husband’s because I WANTED to, it’s MY choice and no one else can tell me not to. I like the name far more than my original surname.😄

Other people are allowed an opinion. No one's telling you not to.

It's just amusing that men never seem to want to; men never have to show a commitment to a new team by ditching their name and men never seem to have awful, unprouncecable or difficult to spell surnames.

@Aroundtheworldin80moves

I am more bothered by the whole Miss, Mrs, Ms thing. Men are Mr for life. Women have to publicly display their status.

Agree here too. I'm so done with the Ms/Miss/Mrs thing that I use 'Dr' as a matter of course. Incidentally, I'm often better treated when I do.

But this isn't the point. A woman should not have to work for 8 years and obtain a bloody PhD for the privilege of an androgynous, respectful title that doesn't scream with connotations related to our sexual status.

'Ms' I'll accept, but Miss and especially 'Mrs' irritate me. It's a pointless distinction in any case given all are truncations of exactly the same word!

Women get judged all of the time for everything, this is just another thing to add to the list. But I would argue - it’s not anyone here that has remotely said that other women should be vilified for not keeping their name. But being ultra defensive and saying patriarchy had nothing to do with it really holds us as women back. If we allow this to be considered, then we can open our minds a bit more to the reality of patriarchy - that is all. By denying that we changed our names because of patriarchy, is to be blind to this and won’t help future generations of women to be able to decide for themselves.

I for one have never felt that a woman has ever been judged harshly for changing her name once married.

Quite the opposite, it is FAR easier to do this. She doesn’t get second ‘checked’ at parents evening as her name is different from her children’s, she doesn’t get antagonised by MiL, she has Christmas cards addressed to Mr and Mrs X. Society finds it much easier when people just conform.

It really is not easy to go against this trend. I have been judged quite a lot for not changing my name. I never thought anything of it, never thought I was doing a particularly ‘feminist’ thing, just wanted to keep my name. It is my identity. However I have been constantly judged in RL, I’ve been looked down on by women in my locality who are conservative, I’ve been berated by MiL, told that I must be ‘quite bossy’ and my husband is ‘under my thumb’. He’s been made fun of as if he is less of a man.

@Cameleongirl

Ugh, people are so critical of other women’s choices on this thread. Aren't we all allowed to do what we want, or can we only confirm to what some people believe is the “right” thing to do? We have to be dictated to by them?

Forget that. I changed my surname to my husband’s because I WANTED to, it’s MY choice and no one else can tell me not to. I like the name far more than my original surname.😄

Why shouldn't women be critical of other women's choices? You can do what you like but others are allowed to have opinions on it!

Quite the opposite, it is FAR easier to do this. She doesn’t get second ‘checked’ at parents evening as her name is different from her children’s, she doesn’t get antagonised by MiL, she has Christmas cards addressed to Mr and Mrs X. Society finds it much easier when people just conform.

Amen to all the above. I've been quite surprised by the pushback, which still happens now although we've been married for well over a decade. We are talking outright rudeness, including a suggestion from someone that 'well I changed my name because I RESPECT my husband!' (I thought it would make me equally petty if I pointed out that I was still married whilst she was divorced. As it happens, I adore my husband who is very proud of my independence, what I've done in my career. I'm no less a loving wife and happen to have maintained a full life and identity outside our marriage as well as within it).

The Miss/Mrs thing is just someone ticking boxes - they couldn't care less how I style myself - or so I thought before a couple of people who were goods or service providers got quite snotty about it. I was genuinely surprised. In academia, where I work, it's far less common for women to change their names on marriage than not.

In-laws, well. I live very differently from them, is all I can say. To some people, different = bad. If they're this immovable, there's nothing to be done with this. I'm not about to change to placate others' views of what women 'should' be. But it's undeniable. The pressure is there, it's there because of the patriarchy, and because I don't want to go through life fighting pointless battles all the time, it's occasionally occurred to me to capitulate to it for an easy life.

So far I've resisted that temptation.

Not had time to RTFT, so someone may have already posted this.

In Afghanistan many women don't even get to keep their forename either, therefore becoming invisible once married. I consider the practice of taking husband surname in this country to just be a lite version of the loss of identity experienced by Afghan women.

I chose to double barrel my surname so that I would partially share my surname with my children, although for work purposes I have kept using my maiden name alone. It doesn't make me any less married to DH.

I don't wear a ring either, and the only speech at my wedding was by my female friend (whose a politician and an awesome public speaker), DH didn't want to do a speech (not a fan of public speaking) and my dad was too unwell at the time to speak. It was only after the event that I realised it is not normal for a women to do a wedding speech at all.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-53436335.amp

I kept my name. I kind of regret it now I have 2 kids with my husbands name. And I made W big feminist deal of it so difficult to change now.
Silly really. I'm hardly smashing the patriarchy by keeping my dad's name.

@CloseYourEyesAndSee. Fair enough, but personally I think that there’s so many more important issues that we could be focusing on, it can’t be bothered with this one.

Unless changing/not changing your name holds a women back in some way, why focus on it?

*I can’t be bothered

@emeraldcity2000

I kept my name. I kind of regret it now I have 2 kids with my husbands name. And I made W big feminist deal of it so difficult to change now. Silly really. I'm hardly smashing the patriarchy by keeping my dad's name.

Why is it your dad's name and not your own name?

@Cameleongirl

Ugh, people are so critical of other women’s choices on this thread. Aren't we all allowed to do what we want, or can we only confirm to what some people believe is the “right” thing to do? We have to be dictated to by them?

Forget that. I changed my surname to my husband’s because I WANTED to, it’s MY choice and no one else can tell me not to. I like the name far more than my original surname.😄

Nobody’s telling you what to do.

But if you think people don’t have opinions on things, you’re very naive.

I took my husband’s name, but I heartily defend any woman’s choice to keep her own (and will encourage DD to).

Many of my friends have kept their own names.

It's symbolic of all the small things that create our patriarchal society. I believe we need to be questioning it all and that it sends out much stronger gendered messages to our children than we realise. A lot of this I've only realised since becoming a mother.

Things like realising how few of my daughters books had female protagonists. That we refer fo everything as he/him 'look at that squirrel, what's he up to?'
Praising girls for how they look or how sweet/kind they are and boys for their strength and guts. The fact we say 'I'm a working mum' and not 'working sad'. Things being referred to as girls toys and boys toys. 'Boys clothes' having diggers, dinosaurs, space ships and a theme or adventure on them and 'girls clothes' having cute princesses and bunnies on them. Mum giving up their name and taking on dads name. All these small things send out the message that men are more important. This leads to girls starting to lack confidence and boys feeling more entitled. Chose to ignore it if you like but I believe it makes more of an impact that we like to admit.

'Working dad' that should have said not 'working sad' haha