Late night thoughts... women changing surnames after marriage

[FatJan]

Not sure if this is the right board as I'm not fully sure where I'm going with this yet! Feels vaguely right, but happy for it to be moved.

Basically, I was scrolling through social media this evening and clicked on a post from a girl I knew at school which had got lots of comments.

As I scrolled down the post, I saw a load of comments from women whose names I didn't recognise.

I thought it was a bit strange I didn't recognise/couldn't remember who they were because the post was about something that happened at the school, and they were all talking as if they'd been there.

Suddenly I realised that I did actually know all of the women - they were all girls from our year.

I hadn't realised because they've all got married and now have their husbands' surnames.

It gave me a weird and not particularly pleasant feeling.

I haven't followed these ladies' lives over the years as they weren't in my close friendship circle, but I remember them well and how they were as children and teenagers.

Something about the fact that the identities they had when they were young no longer exist (on paper anyway) and they all have their husbands' names now made me feel a bit upset, which surprised me.

I'm trying to explore that feeling and I thought writing it down/sharing it might be a good place to start.

Obviously being happily married isn't a bad thing, so I think it's more the (perceived) loss of old identity thing that has given me a jolt, probably linked to the fact that men get to keep theirs.

I think it was also related to the fact it wasn't just one woman with a new name, it was the entire friendship group. It made it seem like the 'thing' to do, and I suppose it is, although I'm not sure how I feel about that. Some of the girls were very outspoken feminist types and to see them all as wives now with their husbands' name was a bit unexpected.

To be honest, I've been very in-my-head with the Sarah and Sabina cases and the ongoing discussions around things women go through that men don't, and this might be impacting the way I responded emotionally to that particular post.

Does the above make sense at all? Has anyone noticed or felt something similar?

We (Europeans) live in a patriarchy and therefore you take your father’s name, and then your husband’s name.

It's not a European tradition to take your husband's name. I'm in Italy and no women take their husband's name - it's not even possible. Consequently, it's completely normal not to have the same surname as your children.

Interesting thing about Italy.

Iceland have a different system too they don't have family names as such. The surname is derived from the father's name.
So say the father was Magnus Johnson.
His sons would become xxxxx Magnusson.
And his daughters would be xxxxxx Magnusdottir.

So effectively 4 people in the family wouldn't have the same name.

@GreekTragedy

Funnily enough I was thinking about this last night too.

My 3 closest friends have kept their surname and one has double barrelled. We're all in our 50s. I was wondering why we'd not succumbed to social pressure.

I genuinely don't understand why women change their surname. I had 2 kids with my partner. The first had his surname and my surname as a middle name. The second child was going to have my surname. But when it came to it, couldn't do it. Thought it would be unfair for them at school to have different surnames.

I've never thought it didn't make us a "little family" as we didn't have the same surname. How odd! I think it's more odd that women change their name.

The only problem as such, was travelling abroad with different surnames. But as long as I had a letter from partner it was ok.

And I know I'll get slammed for this, but don't know how someone can profess to be a feminist then change their surname to their husband's!!

I don't know why someone who professes to be a feminist and keeps their own name would give her children their father's surname, rather than her own, or both.

Decades ago I rebelled against taking my husband’s name - to the horror of his mother, but it was made very clear that I had to be Mrs DH at work when I had my DC, moral standards you know! My friend had given in the month before me so I felt I had to as well. Today, all my sister in laws kept their names, my nieces and nephews have combined surnames, and I am left, probably, the only person in the world with my combination of names with both my sons using my maiden name on social media as the surname is so identifiable- DMIL is not happy.
I still feel a traitor for giving in and I’m fed up of having to spell out both my first and second names.

@MarshmallowSwede

There are some cultures where the children “belong” to the woman’s family and they don’t take their husband’s name.

We (Europeans) live in a patriarchy and therefore you take your father’s name, and then your husband’s name. You have always “belonged” to a man. Even your “maiden” name is your father’s name. So one way or another you have always “belonged” to a man. I don’t see a difference between your father’s surname or your husband’s.

What do you mean "your husband's name"?

You just explained that a woman's name is apparently not her name, but it is her father's.

So why on earth would it be her husband's name? It would be her father-in-law's.

Actually, that's not right either, is it? Because it's actually his father's name, not his own. So it's your father-in-law's father's name.

Oh hang on. No. It would be his father's, wouldn't it? So it's your father-in-law's father's father's name.

No, wait...

Or is it just women whose names are apparently never our own?

Personally I prefer the system in Iceland and other places of daughters taking their mother’s name, sons their father’s.

That's not the case. Almost everyone in Iceland has a patronymic, i.e. their father's name in the genitive case plus son or dóttir. Some people do have a matronymic but that has nothing to do with their own sex - in these cases it's often that the father is unknown or estranged or that the person has changed to a matronymic or added one for feminist reasons.

It does mean that because hardly anyone in Iceland actually has a surname, nobody changes name when they marry. Marriage doesn't change the fact that you are Jón's daughter. But interestingly many foreign women who marry Icelandic men do take their patronymic, which I honestly find absolutely ridiculous as they are calling themselves the son of their FIL.

I have a son and a daughter and they have patronymics, so all 4 of us have different last names. Although the system is different, it's really just as 'patriarchal' and you do see different patterns when an Icelandic woman marries a foreign man to when a foreign woman marries an Icelandic man.

@Tinabn

Decades ago I rebelled against taking my husband’s name - to the horror of his mother, but it was made very clear that I had to be Mrs DH at work when I had my DC, moral standards you know! My friend had given in the month before me so I felt I had to as well. Today, all my sister in laws kept their names, my nieces and nephews have combined surnames, and I am left, probably, the only person in the world with my combination of names with both my sons using my maiden name on social media as the surname is so identifiable- DMIL is not happy. I still feel a traitor for giving in and I’m fed up of having to spell out both my first and second names.

Now THAT really does make me furious, no matter what the era.

Voluntarily taking on someone else's name is one thing. Having it imposed on you is quite another.

And don't get me started on the Miss/Mrs/Ms distinction. I also keep being pestered for my 'maiden name' on a Facebook school reunion page and have to keep reiterating that I don't have a 'maiden' name. I have one family name, the name I've used since birth, and that would be mine. I'm with @KimikosNightmare on that one: a name 'label' announcing our sexual status makes me want to throw my coat over my head!

Commiserations on MiL. Mine won't respect my own personal preference of identity, either. It's so rude.

I took my EXs name. I wish I hadn’t as professionally I’m known as it, all my certifications are in that name and it would be a pain to change it. I do however still like having the same name as my DC and I think this alone will stop me from changing it back, it’s also been my name now the majority of my adult life

@Bolognesedoc

We (Europeans) live in a patriarchy and therefore you take your father’s name, and then your husband’s name.

It's not a European tradition to take your husband's name. I'm in Italy and no women take their husband's name - it's not even possible. Consequently, it's completely normal not to have the same surname as your children.

Do any children have the mother’s surname?

My dh is originally from Egypt. Women always keep their name on marriage and children traditionally take their fathers and paternal grandfather's first names as their last names, hence the whole family have different last names, similar to the Icelandic system.
Also some British women who marry Egyptian men take on their husbands last name, which I find strange given the naming system there.

If you give baby your surname you can easily change it, if you give baby dad’s surname you need his permission to change it.

To change a child’s name you need consent of those with parental responsibility (or you need to get a court order), regardless of what surname the child had originally.

Unless you mean it’s easy to change because you’re assuming the name is being changed to the father’s and he will consent?

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

I would not be happy to have to take a letter from my children's father or a photo of their birth certificate to travel. That strikes me as far more of an infringement than changing my last name tbh. I literally made my children and the idea that society views them as more my husband's on the basis of a name fills me with rage. I had my first child before DH and I married and I gave him my name as there's no way I was willing to be treated as if I was the lesser parent.

Well you could always give your children your surname if you feel that way about it!

Do any children have the mother’s surname?
Very few as yet. The law has only just changed allowing married mothers to give their children their surnames.

@RosesAndHellebores I don't feel I've had to fight for a thing. I have always had well paid work, we decided to have children when mat leave was 6 months and paying for child care was entirely our responsibility. I have never felt threatened by assault or violence and have always made sure mechanisms have absolutely minimised it. We also made sure our dd had a fantastic education and is able, having recently graduated from Cambridge to chose her career path.
Perhaps money and privilege do provide a buffer for many women like yourself, and so in a sense you can afford the luxury of not thinking about others whether you change your name or not on marriage - and whether your actions uphold the patriarchy. However 100 years ago you would’ve been able to vote, send your daughter to Cambridge or have a career, so someone fought for you. I love being a woman too but I have found certain aspects still very tough. I have been assaulted many times, I have had to fight to gain recognition at work, I did go to a good University however I was the first one to do so as a female, the men were always expected and supported more. Then when I married and had to give up my career for a while with a disabled child, that vulnerability was totally exploited by my husband and society did not value me.

So for me patriarchy is still very much alive! However at least I have done a small bit by not changing my name and my children have mine.

I’ve always thought it was the weirdest thing - to change your name to your husbands. To me, it was such a symbol of losing your identity, of becoming his property almost that there was no way I was going to do it and I didn’t. However, the only person I know who hasn’t is a gay friend of mine - she married a woman and both kept names.everyone else has changed name, though some use their “maiden” (yuck!) name for work.

I never ever refer to myself as Mrs Ms or anything else for that matter and I never ask any one else if they are Mrs/Mr or whatever.
I really think that all adult females such be referred to as Mrs the same as adult men are called Mr.

@Onlinedilema

I never ever refer to myself as Mrs Ms or anything else for that matter and I never ask any one else if they are Mrs/Mr or whatever. I really think that all adult females such be referred to as Mrs the same as adult men are called Mr.

Mrs denotes married though, so it's not appropriate to assume women want to be called it.

Take their name/give up your name and why not honour and obey too? It's tradition apparently

@NellieEllie

I’ve always thought it was the weirdest thing - to change your name to your husbands. To me, it was such a symbol of losing your identity, of becoming his property almost that there was no way I was going to do it and I didn’t. However, the only person I know who hasn’t is a gay friend of mine - she married a woman and both kept names.everyone else has changed name, though some use their “maiden” (yuck!) name for work.

I was happy to slough off the identity attached to my ‘maiden name’, @NellieEllie - it was used for years as the basis of a horrible nickname that was used to bully me, leaving me with lifelong depression, anxiety and low self esteem. That nickname was a big part of why I was having suicidal thoughts at age 14.

Closeyoureyes yes I understand Mrs traditionally means married woman but why can't it become adult female just had Mr is. I believe they do this is France and Germany. Otherwise we could use Ms as a standard title.He

We married quite late in life, I was forty. I didn't change my family name.

The only person who objected was my DM, who was not convinced that it was 'allowed'. She was the only person who ever wrote to me using my married name - so DH would open her letters in error, not noticing the difference between Mr X X Finally and Mrs X X Finally. 😀

Three decades later, in DH's family, the couples where she took his name are now divorced. The two who kept their own names are still going strong.

Speaks volumes.

@Onlinedilema

Closeyoureyes yes I understand Mrs traditionally means married woman but why can't it become adult female just had Mr is. I believe they do this is France and Germany. Otherwise we could use Ms as a standard title.He

Ms is the standard title Until women stop wanting to advertise their marital status via title you aren't going to persuade anyone that Mrs is equivalent to Mr

@NCBlossom I am sorry life has been tough for you.

I kept my name. My kids have my husbands name. He felt strongly about this since otherwise that branch of his name would have died out, whereas my name might carry in with my brother's future family. I was less fussed and didn't want them to have a hyphenated name. Now we live in a country where my name is very common and his isn't so I am happy with the decision! Most of my friends changed their names on marriage, despite there being some discussion around it at the time, I still mostly think of them as their maiden names.

@Onlinedilema

Closeyoureyes yes I understand Mrs traditionally means married woman but why can't it become adult female just had Mr is. I believe they do this is France and Germany. Otherwise we could use Ms as a standard title.He

Mrs to denote marital status seems to be a peculiarity of English speakers.

Women in other countries seem to be quite happy without the ability to tell the world and her husband that they've bagged a man.

I really dislike "Mrs"