Late night thoughts... women changing surnames after marriage

[FatJan]

Not sure if this is the right board as I'm not fully sure where I'm going with this yet! Feels vaguely right, but happy for it to be moved.

Basically, I was scrolling through social media this evening and clicked on a post from a girl I knew at school which had got lots of comments.

As I scrolled down the post, I saw a load of comments from women whose names I didn't recognise.

I thought it was a bit strange I didn't recognise/couldn't remember who they were because the post was about something that happened at the school, and they were all talking as if they'd been there.

Suddenly I realised that I did actually know all of the women - they were all girls from our year.

I hadn't realised because they've all got married and now have their husbands' surnames.

It gave me a weird and not particularly pleasant feeling.

I haven't followed these ladies' lives over the years as they weren't in my close friendship circle, but I remember them well and how they were as children and teenagers.

Something about the fact that the identities they had when they were young no longer exist (on paper anyway) and they all have their husbands' names now made me feel a bit upset, which surprised me.

I'm trying to explore that feeling and I thought writing it down/sharing it might be a good place to start.

Obviously being happily married isn't a bad thing, so I think it's more the (perceived) loss of old identity thing that has given me a jolt, probably linked to the fact that men get to keep theirs.

I think it was also related to the fact it wasn't just one woman with a new name, it was the entire friendship group. It made it seem like the 'thing' to do, and I suppose it is, although I'm not sure how I feel about that. Some of the girls were very outspoken feminist types and to see them all as wives now with their husbands' name was a bit unexpected.

To be honest, I've been very in-my-head with the Sarah and Sabina cases and the ongoing discussions around things women go through that men don't, and this might be impacting the way I responded emotionally to that particular post.

Does the above make sense at all? Has anyone noticed or felt something similar?

You could argue that men are prohibited from changing their names because of societal expectations. Women are given an opportunity to ditch something they don't like without any negative judgement (except from other women, seemingly),so it's women who are getting the better deal here. Men with stupid names are lumbered with them unless they feel so strongly they are willing to go down the deep poll route and upset their own parents.

I thought the white dress was from Queen Victoria - a demonstration that she was so rich she could buy a dress for her wedding in a completely impractical colour. Iirc, women didn't always marry in white.

This is entirely right. Before Victoria women often simply wore their best dress to be married in. If any colour was said to be a symbol of purity it was blue - not white at all - because it was seen as the colour of the Virgin Mary's robes.

Just typing that has made me smile wryly. It's all a complete crock of shit really, isn't it!

@NCBlossom Fair enough, I could've changed it to "Smith" and been done with it. But tbh I do like having the same name as my children so it works for me.

Neither of my children (DD and DS) are interested in changing their surname upon marriage (DD (16) has talked about this before), because they're happy with it.

@Cameleongirl

Absolutely this. Of course it’s patriarchal, if you change your name that you’ve had your whole life, to a man you’ve met and are marrying. When the man would not do this. So why are you?

@NCBlossom You might if you had a surname that you were teased about, as I was! Think something like Higglebottom or Death. You then meet someone with a name you actually like, so you choose to change your name to that. Why not?

It's funny how it's always women who are lumbered with terrible surnames isn't it?

I mean the woman who married Mr Higglebottom and who went on to be with him the parent of Baby Girl Higglebottom must have a birth name. Presumably it was even worse than Higglebottom?

Or possibly her name was de Winter but she just really fancied being Mrs Higglebottom?

@ Cameleongirl I understand your reasons but I guess the original question wasn’t so much why people do or don’t change their names, but maybe the link between casual everyday sexism and loss of identity entailed by a woman’s name change and why this made OP feel uncomfortable in light of murders of women. In my opinion, a common thread here is the patriarchy!

I’ve thought about this a fair bit as I’m annoyed I changed my name from a feminist pov. My main reason was because I wanted children and to all have the same name. What I wish I had done, is for us to have chosen a new family name together. The reason this didn’t come into my mind when I got married was because I didn’t realise how much I had internalised patriarchal norms. Fast forward to a few years on Mumsnet, I do.

@KimikosNightmare OK, you've got me there...my Mum's surname was fine, then she changed it to my Dad's...so yes, it was following the patriarchal tradition that perpetuated the awful name (not really Higglebottom, but equally grim, imo)

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

You could argue that men are prohibited from changing their names because of societal expectations. Women are given an opportunity to ditch something they don't like without any negative judgement (except from other women, seemingly),so it's women who are getting the better deal here. Men with stupid names are lumbered with them unless they feel so strongly they are willing to go down the deep poll route and upset their own parents.

No men are not "lumbered" with awful names. There is nothing in law to stop a man doing exactly the same as many women on here are doing.

Anyone can change their name by deed poll at any time (and even that isn't strictly necessary and isn't needed in Scotland)

Everyone also has the opportunity of changing it after marriage by presenting the marriage certificate.

@Kollamoolitumarellipawkyrollo

I’ve thought about this a fair bit as I’m annoyed I changed my name from a feminist pov. My main reason was because I wanted children and to all have the same name. What I wish I had done, is for us to have chosen a new family name together. The reason this didn’t come into my mind when I got married was because I didn’t realise how much I had internalised patriarchal norms. Fast forward to a few years on Mumsnet, I do.

Another reason is the misconceptions about the legalities around names.

For example I've heard people saying that when registering a birth the child must take the father's name if the parents are married. Not true.

There's no legal requirement to use either surname, regardless of marital status. Mr Higglebottom and Ms Smellie could of course inflict "Smellie Higglebottom" on their unfortunate offspring or they could call her "Rebecca de Winter"

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

I thought the white dress was from Queen Victoria - a demonstration that she was so rich she could buy a dress for her wedding in a completely impractical colour. Iirc, women didn't always marry in white.

This is entirely right. Before Victoria women often simply wore their best dress to be married in. If any colour was said to be a symbol of purity it was blue - not white at all - because it was seen as the colour of the Virgin Mary's robes.

Just typing that has made me smile wryly. It's all a complete crock of shit really, isn't it!

I mentioned Edith Wharton referring to recycling the wedding dress. I think this is also mentioned in Victorian novels too.

@AICM

*Most marriage traditions are out dated.(

To those that did change their names, do you wear an engagement ring? Did somebody walk you down the aisle, Did you wear a posh dress? Did any women give speeches? I'm sure some here can answer no to all.of these. But to those that didn't change your name but wear an engagement ring... what's the difference?

There is no difference. They are all patriarchal traditions. That's why I kept my own name, gave the kids both names, and didn't do any of the things you list.

Retaining our names is such an easy win though. I am surprised more women don’t do this. We have to fight for pay equality, fight for better maternity/childcare/flexible work, fight to feel safe from sexual assault or DV, fight to ensure our daughters can have any career they want…

However keeping our names on marriage is against the norm, and we are open to judgements, but it’s relatively easy to do this now. And it would really help to change patriarchy into a more equally society where women’s identities are not being a wife, mother, subservient in identity to a man, who is just a man. Names are very powerful. Who knows, it may then become more normal for children to take their mother’s name.

It is a powerful but fairly ‘quick win’ to make a better, more equal society. Your individual choice does influence culture. It matters.

[quote BoreiPuriHagafen]@AICM

*Most marriage traditions are out dated.(

To those that did change their names, do you wear an engagement ring? Did somebody walk you down the aisle, Did you wear a posh dress? Did any women give speeches? I'm sure some here can answer no to all.of these. But to those that didn't change your name but wear an engagement ring... what's the difference?

There is no difference. They are all patriarchal traditions. That's why I kept my own name, gave the kids both names, and didn't do any of the things you list.[/quote]
I agree.

Changing your name and wearing an engagement ring are in the same category. So a woman who does one of these then questioning another woman who does both of these is a hypocrit.

Woman can make any decision they want - but own them and don't judge others.

@Cameleongirl

Absolutely this. Of course it’s patriarchal, if you change your name that you’ve had your whole life, to a man you’ve met and are marrying. When the man would not do this. So why are you?

@NCBlossom You might if you had a surname that you were teased about, as I was! Think something like Higglebottom or Death. You then meet someone with a name you actually like, so you choose to change your name to that. Why not?

Why don't the male higginbottoms and deaths choose to change their names? This is always said by women as a reason why they changed their names. I don't buy it.

Changing your name and wearing an engagement ring are in the same category. So a woman who does one of these then questioning another woman who does both of these is a hypocrit.

They might be in the same category but they are many orders of magnitude different in terms of impact on the woman. It's disingenuous to insist they are equivalent.

@NCBlossom I don't feel I've had to fight for a thing. I have always had well paid work, we decided to have children when mat leave was 6 months and paying for child care was entirely our responsibility. I have never felt threatened by assault or violence and have always made sure mechanisms have absolutely minimised it. We also made sure our dd had a fantastic education and is able, having recently graduated from Cambridge to chose her career path.

I have felt privileged to be a woman and have had two successful careers before and after DC. I started when things were much tougher for women now back in 1980 and wonder a little why women still feel so hard done by.

I live being a woman. I loved getting engaged and still wear my ring, I love the fact that over time my wedding and engagement rings have increased in value, I loved my father walking me down the aisle and making sincere promises before God and witnessed by our families and closest friends.

Most of all I have loved being a mother and my DH's partner and love him more now than 30 years ago.

Perhaps my contentment stems from being happy with my lot and enjoying it from a glass always half full.

Some men do change their names. But I think for most it either doesn't occur to them as an option or they CBA because it involves effort and potentially upsets their own parents. Women do have a socially accepted 'out', which doesn't upset our own families and doesn't require deed poll to be legally useable.
I do think that women should be told that using their husband's name is a social convention and isn't actually a legal thing - your birth name remains your actual legal name unless you do a deed poll to change it. So married women have the right to use both, as suits them. They aren't really giving anything up. I do believe some women are unaware of this.
Obviously for identity verification you do have to use whatever you've got on your passport when booking tickets though.

Also, although many women in this country have led safe, happy lives and have felt they benefitted from equality of opportunity, as a class women are still underrepresented and discriminated against. Sometimes we aren't even aware of this discrimination until after the fact - for example going for job interviews as a young woman and the panel making mental assessments as to whether you are a safe bet or will you go on mat leave and therefore the male candidates are better for the company. You wouldn't necessarily know that until a pattern emerges.

Names and engagement rings seem like a small unimportant thing though given that no woman in the UK is forced to do either. At the moment I think women as a collective would do better to focus on the roll back to women's rights in places that are happening even in places like the USA re abortion and our loss of identity/right to single sex spaces.

Funnily enough I was thinking about this last night too.

My 3 closest friends have kept their surname and one has double barrelled. We're all in our 50s. I was wondering why we'd not succumbed to social pressure.

I genuinely don't understand why women change their surname. I had 2 kids with my partner. The first had his surname and my surname as a middle name. The second child was going to have my surname. But when it came to it, couldn't do it. Thought it would be unfair for them at school to have different surnames.

I've never thought it didn't make us a "little family" as we didn't have the same surname. How odd! I think it's more odd that women change their name.

The only problem as such, was travelling abroad with different surnames. But as long as I had a letter from partner it was ok.

And I know I'll get slammed for this, but don't know how someone can profess to be a feminist then change their surname to their husband's!!

It always amazes me that name changing is still a thing. It feels like something that would have been put in the bin of history before women got the vote.
And as for 'I want the same name as my children' then double barrel. The next

There are some cultures where the children “belong” to the woman’s family and they don’t take their husband’s name.

We (Europeans) live in a patriarchy and therefore you take your father’s name, and then your husband’s name. You have always “belonged” to a man. Even your “maiden” name is your father’s name. So one way or another you have always “belonged” to a man. I don’t see a difference between your father’s surname or your husband’s.

I personally don’t think this is a pressing feminist issue. I don’t think most people care of you change your name. I also don’t think it makes you a bad feminist to take your husbands name. It doesn’t make you a better feminist to keep your “maiden” name.

After all.. like I mentioned before. Anyone born in a patriarchal society has a man’s surname to signify that she is part of that man’s family. So your “maiden” name isn’t even your name. It’s your fathers name.. not a hill to die on really.

You can fight to change this, but it’s so that it’s not seen as an issue if a woman keeps her name.

I say do what works for you. When traveling you might get a few extra questions, but other than that your life won’t be damaged by keeping your name.

I would not be happy to have to take a letter from my children's father or a photo of their birth certificate to travel. That strikes me as far more of an infringement than changing my last name tbh. I literally made my children and the idea that society views them as more my husband's on the basis of a name fills me with rage.
I had my first child before DH and I married and I gave him my name as there's no way I was willing to be treated as if I was the lesser parent.

I couldn't bring myself to change my name even though I like DH's better.

The DC have his name because I was the primary carer and wanted it to be obvious that his is their father. As it turns out they look just like him, so that wasn't a necessary consideration. DH didn't care what I did or what we did for the kids, but he didn't want to change his own name. Fair enough, I didn't want to do that either.

Decades on, I still receive post addressed to 'Mr and Mrs DH First name DH Surname' from relatives who think I should have changed it

I personally don’t think this is a pressing feminist issue. I don’t think most people care of you change your name.

I definitely agree that there are much more pressing feminist issues. However I met with eye rolling and pushback for keeping my name. Some people are surprisingly invested in maintaining these traditions. I was amazed that they cared at all and have no opinion on what other women choose to do.