Late night thoughts... women changing surnames after marriage

[FatJan]

Not sure if this is the right board as I'm not fully sure where I'm going with this yet! Feels vaguely right, but happy for it to be moved.

Basically, I was scrolling through social media this evening and clicked on a post from a girl I knew at school which had got lots of comments.

As I scrolled down the post, I saw a load of comments from women whose names I didn't recognise.

I thought it was a bit strange I didn't recognise/couldn't remember who they were because the post was about something that happened at the school, and they were all talking as if they'd been there.

Suddenly I realised that I did actually know all of the women - they were all girls from our year.

I hadn't realised because they've all got married and now have their husbands' surnames.

It gave me a weird and not particularly pleasant feeling.

I haven't followed these ladies' lives over the years as they weren't in my close friendship circle, but I remember them well and how they were as children and teenagers.

Something about the fact that the identities they had when they were young no longer exist (on paper anyway) and they all have their husbands' names now made me feel a bit upset, which surprised me.

I'm trying to explore that feeling and I thought writing it down/sharing it might be a good place to start.

Obviously being happily married isn't a bad thing, so I think it's more the (perceived) loss of old identity thing that has given me a jolt, probably linked to the fact that men get to keep theirs.

I think it was also related to the fact it wasn't just one woman with a new name, it was the entire friendship group. It made it seem like the 'thing' to do, and I suppose it is, although I'm not sure how I feel about that. Some of the girls were very outspoken feminist types and to see them all as wives now with their husbands' name was a bit unexpected.

To be honest, I've been very in-my-head with the Sarah and Sabina cases and the ongoing discussions around things women go through that men don't, and this might be impacting the way I responded emotionally to that particular post.

Does the above make sense at all? Has anyone noticed or felt something similar?

To those that did change their names, do you wear an engagement ring? Did somebody walk you down the aisle, Did you wear a posh dress? Did any women give speeches?

No engagement ring, no aisle walk in the registry office, no speeches made by anyone, I wore a suit.

I took his name because it is a rare and beautiful one.

Um... Its a bit more than that, kind of symbolises you're '' taken '' and that you're the property of someone else now for anyone else wanting to date you.

Does anyone actually see it like that any more though? Wearing a ring doesn't make you anyone's property. Neither does being married, come to that.

You don't lose your identity just by changing your name. They are still the same people (just older and hopefully wiser of course!).

I like my husband and I having the same surname. I had my dad's before then and he was an absent parent so have no emotional ties to that name. Plus my husbands surname is better 😊.

Putting on a piece of jewellery?!
Um... Its a bit more than that, kind of symbolises you're '' taken '' and that you're the property of someone else now for anyone else wanting to date you.
So bit hypocritical if anyone has a problem with name changing but not putting a ring on.

When you can reverse the decision to wear an engagement ring by...removing the ring it's not the same as changing your name!!

@MaenadsJustWannaHaveFun absolutely: engagement ring - I chose it; wedding ring blessed before God in a breathtakingly spiritual part of the service, eternity ring after 10 years. And yes I did give a speech - all my women friends refused to stop.
banging the tables until I did.

I couldn't wear my rings for several weeks recently after falling down a mountain in the Pyrenees - when DH had to trek for help sans phone signal. Wedding ring is being repaired and I miss it greatly

This thread is so interesting - a lot of judgment on both sides. Ultimately I don't have any opinion of whether my friends choose to change their name or not, as long as they have the choice. It certainly would never anger me - it's their life and I don't think any less of them either way as I am friends with them because they're excellent people that I enjoy being around.

I am currently in a position of deciding whether or not to change my name, and what to. I'm engaged, wedding was postponed two years due to Covid and I'm currently pregnant. We had originally discussed double barreling our names but now we're discussing baby names I really dislike the sound of them all with our double-barrelled surname. We've discussed a brand new surname and we've discussed all taking my surname. Fiancé is open to all options.

I'd like the same surname as my children, whatever that ends up being. I think the real issue is that society in the UK doesn't make it easy for a woman to have a different surname to her children. Personally the practical implications such as this are much more likely to sway me to change my name than any feeling of obligation to my partner. But the practical implications still exist as a result of the patriarchal society we live in, so it's a vicious circle.

Ultimately my respect for my friends as strong, independent women who are making a difference to the world isn't massively swayed by what they choose to do with their name. They are so much more than a name.

I wear an engagement ring. I didn't change my name though. It's very, very different. For a start, I can take off and put on my rings whenever I feel like, changing my name is a bit more permanent. My name is called several times a day, it would make a difference to my daily life if my name suddenly changed to dh's surname, I would have to get used to answering to something new. Also, DH wears an engagement/wedding ring too, so although we did the traditional thing with me having a ring, he did too. It would be a bit silly for us both to change our names though, so neither of us did.

@thismotherhoodthing

This thread is so interesting - a lot of judgment on both sides. Ultimately I don't have any opinion of whether my friends choose to change their name or not, as long as they have the choice. It certainly would never anger me - it's their life and I don't think any less of them either way as I am friends with them because they're excellent people that I enjoy being around.

I am currently in a position of deciding whether or not to change my name, and what to. I'm engaged, wedding was postponed two years due to Covid and I'm currently pregnant. We had originally discussed double barreling our names but now we're discussing baby names I really dislike the sound of them all with our double-barrelled surname. We've discussed a brand new surname and we've discussed all taking my surname. Fiancé is open to all options.

I'd like the same surname as my children, whatever that ends up being. I think the real issue is that society in the UK doesn't make it easy for a woman to have a different surname to her children. Personally the practical implications such as this are much more likely to sway me to change my name than any feeling of obligation to my partner. But the practical implications still exist as a result of the patriarchal society we live in, so it's a vicious circle.

Ultimately my respect for my friends as strong, independent women who are making a difference to the world isn't massively swayed by what they choose to do with their name. They are so much more than a name.

If you give baby your surname you can easily change it, if you give baby dad’s surname you need his permission to change it. So be sure before you register baby’s surname.

Its a bit more than that, kind of symbolises you're '' taken '' and that you're the property of someone else now for anyone else wanting to date you. So bit hypocritical if anyone has a problem with name changing but not putting a ring on.

Hardly. It's a finger ring, not a septum-ring put there for the purpose of leading you around like a prize bull. Unless you're suggesting that's tantamount to the same thing.

Given men wear wedding rings pretty much as often as women do these days, are they also proudly symbolising that they're someone's possession? Even if this were so, on this basis alone the argument that wearing particular jewellery is pandering to the patriarchy falls flat on its nose.

To the PP who asked the series of questions to women who changed their names: I didn't. But I do agree: wedding ceremonies are full of awful dated stereotypes and I was neither handed over from one man to another like a chattel, nor sat through male speeches talking over my head (or any speeches at all, come to think of that). We eloped. Best thing we ever did: neither I nor DH have time for those kinds of fripperies or, quite often, the family strife that comes with it.

We are still happy.

To those that did change their names, do you wear an engagement ring? Did somebody walk you down the aisle, Did you wear a posh dress? Did any women give speeches?

No engagement ring, no aisle walk in the registry office, no speeches made by anyone, I wore a suit

I have a Victorian engraved wedding ring which I didn't wear on the day and hardly ever wear become I love jewellery and have any number of rings in various styles to wear on the ring finger of my left hand. No engagement ring.

I got married in a registry office wearing a black velvet dress. No one gave me away or made speeches.

@2pinkginsplease

I changed my name when I got married, I’ve not lost my identity, I’m still the same person, I’m still me.

I wanted us to have the same name so that our children ,when we had them would have the same name. Our family name.

Why must the family name be the man's name?

What is to happen on divorce and remarriage? Do the children take a new husband's name?

That calls to mind another objection I've frequently heard. 'Your husband's name is your legal surname'.

It truly isn't, and the cynic in me can't help but suspect disingenuousness

It's completely disingenuous.

I changed my name when I got married 25 years ago and have never regretted it.
Where I live it is still normal for women to change their names on marriage. I cant think of one single person except for my friend/ colleague who used her original name for work for a couple of years and gave up.

Even at work senior managers change their name. It doesn't seem to their career any harm.

My face book is filled with profiles such as Debbie Jones ( was Smith)

In fact thinking about it I can think of more men ( 4 in total) that have changed their name to their wife's name than women who have kept their name.

I'd like the same surname as my children, whatever that ends up being. I think the real issue is that society in the UK doesn't make it easy for a woman to have a different surname to her children. Personally the practical implications such as this are much more likely to sway me to change my name than any feeling of obligation to my partner. But the practical implications still exist ... Literally never ever been an issue - not at schools, not when travelling, not at doctor’s surgery … Where does this idea come from?

To answer the questions:
I most certainly did wear a wedding dress, there again to quote dd "Mum would wear a dress to the supermarket." I do have an engagement ring, I chose it myself. I don't always wear it though , usually just for special occasions, like I do with my other expensive jewellery. We both have wedding rings and chose our own. I didn't walk down an isle, we married abroad in private next to the sea.
Yes a woman gave a speech at our wedding.
Oh and I spent the eve of my wedding night in bed abroad in a beautiful hotel with my now dh. 😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆

@Justbetweenus

I'd like the same surname as my children, whatever that ends up being. I think the real issue is that society in the UK doesn't make it easy for a woman to have a different surname to her children. Personally the practical implications such as this are much more likely to sway me to change my name than any feeling of obligation to my partner. But the practical implications still exist ... Literally never ever been an issue - not at schools, not when travelling, not at doctor’s surgery … Where does this idea come from?

Indeed One of the patriarchal traditions I did comply with was giving DS his father's surname and I promise you it has NEVER been a problem in the whole 13 years we have been mum and son. We have flown abroad dozens and dozens of times and never had an issue. I have a photo of his birth certificate on my phone and if I'm ever asked this is all I need.

@CloseYourEyesAndSee

But to those that didn't change your name but wear an engagement ring... what's the difference? Do you really not see the difference between putting on a piece of jewellery and changing your surname??

What does it symbolise?

Does the man ever get given an engagement ring?

It's a sexist tradition; a piece of property has been marked by it's new owner.

@lazylinguist

Um... Its a bit more than that, kind of symbolises you're '' taken '' and that you're the property of someone else now for anyone else wanting to date you.

Does anyone actually see it like that any more though? Wearing a ring doesn't make you anyone's property. Neither does being married, come to that.

Then why do so many still do it?

It is massive symbolic. To suggest it's just a piece of jewellery is laughable.

I know what you mean and strangely enough have been thinking the same in relation to murderers for a while. Society thinks it’s ok to erase a woman’s identity through marriage so awful men think it’s ok to erase a woman.

One of the patriarchal traditions I did comply with was giving DS his father's surname and I promise you it has NEVER been a problem in the whole 13 years we have been mum and son. We have flown abroad dozens and dozens of times and never had an issue. I have a photo of his birth certificate on my phone and if I'm ever asked this is all I need

Same here (and still regret that in the post birth fog I didn't think about it as actually my surname is much nicer)

Never had any issues with my son having a different surname and we often travelled together without my husband.

Then why do so many still do it? It is massive symbolic. To suggest it's just a piece of jewellery is laughable.

Because it's a tradition, because they like a sparkly ring and because they are excited about being engaged and having a visible sign of it.

All kinds of traditions that we've chosen to retain were originally symbolic of things that few people actually believe in any more. People like to have rituals to mark important life events or times of year. I mean... look at Christmas and Easter. Or the fact that tons of people still get married or have funerals in church when they don't believe in god.

To suggest that women (or men) in the UK in 2021 view an engagement ring as a property stamp is frankly absurd.

Society thinks it’s ok to erase a woman’s identity through marriage

I fail to see how a woman freely opting to ditch her father's name in exchange for a name she is choosing to take constitutes her identity being erased. Unless she is being forced or manipulated into doing so by her fiancé. In which case she has more to worry about than her name.

I changed my name. I was 23 when I married too (for those who want to judge me). The choice of name was based on which country me and dh were going to live in as both our surnames are very obviously regional with dh having a character that doesn't exist in the English language. My name was difficult for the English to spell and pronounce (Scottish name) and I knew it would be impossible for Germans. We just decided that as we were moving to Germany I would take his name. Though tbh as we were thinking and discussing this I realised that even if we moved to Scotland, I wanted to change names and we looked at translating my husbands surname and adding an element of mine, to make a sort of blend. I had an extremely abusive father and I had wanted to change my name to my mother's from 12 but my sperm donor would not allow me too (it was his last vestige of control over my life) as I started to consider name changing I realised, extremely illogical as it was, that I did not want my husband or any future children to share this name. Hence the two of us considering a new name entirely.

I accept that my choice was not the completely feminist one but I would argue it was slightly feminist in that it actually was a choice and discussion between the two of us, as opposed to my grandmother's and mother's time were it was expected and demanded. Time has moved forward slightly in that people are more and more thinking about these things.

Incidentally a few years after our marriage my DH's best friend married and took his wife's name for remarkably similar reasons to mine. He did not want his wife or future children to share a name with his abusive father either.

I think names can be very emotionally loaded and complex, leading to decisions which seem contradictory and illogical. Humans are complex creatures.

I fail to see how a woman freely opting to ditch her father's name in exchange for a name she ischoosingto take constitutes her identity being erased. Unless she is being forced or manipulated into doing so by her fiancé. In which case she has more to worry about than her name

It is her name. If you honestly believe it is her father's name then presumably you are quite happy that a woman gives up her father's name to take her husband's father's name? By your argument a woman never in fact has her own name; only men are entitled to own their name.