Uni indirectly discriminating

[Watermelonsugarhi]

Just came on here to rant. I'm a mature student (30s) and also a lone parent. I opted to do a gender module and they ironically put that module outside of childcare hours, 4.30pm-6.30pm.

No one would listen to me and I was not taken seriously until i got advise from the equality advisory service. They advised I was being indirectly discriminated against because of my sex.
They gave me a template letter to fill out stating that the uni has a duty to follow the Equalities Act 2010 and not discriminate.

Well ever since i've sent it, a rocket has gone up their bum and suddenly they can change the times of the module. I also received a big apology.

Why did it have to come to sending a stern letter quoting the equalities act for them to do something. It makes me so so angry. The Uni claims its all inclusive but actually they don't think about mature students especially parents.

For you posters having a go, you are clearly missing the point of the equalities act where things should be EQUAL weather your race, religion, sex etc.

I wasn't having a go - I can appreciate how difficult it must be juggling everything without having a class time change to a time that doesn't suit you.
However, the Equality Act is seen all too often as a carte blanche for people who possess one of the protected characteristics to think they can demand whatever they like. THat simply isn't the case.
For indirect discrimination, 'You need to show that people who share your protected characteristic are also disadvantaged, but that the other people in the group to whom the practice, policy or rule applies aren’t.'

Your protected characteristic is being female, not being a lone parent. So you would need to show that the change of time disadvantages the other women on the course but not the men.

For indirect discrimination, 'You need to show that people who share your protected characteristic are also disadvantaged, but that the other people in the group to whom the practice, policy or rule applies aren’t.'

Your protected characteristic is being female, not being a lone parent. So you would need to show that the change of time disadvantages the other women on the course but not the men.

You are correct, but only up to a point. Single parents are more likely to be women (stats cited earlier in the thread). Women (single parents or not) are more likely to bear the brunt of childcare. Therefore, women are not directly discriminated against but they are indirectly discriminated against.

I understand indirect discrimination. The definition provided was for indirect discrimination.

I'm sorry OP some of the posters from AIBU have accidentally wandered into the the feminist board.

Anyway ignore them and well done!

@GreekTragedy

I'm sorry OP some of the posters from AIBU have accidentally wandered into the the feminist board.

Anyway ignore them and well done!

These were my thoughts too.

thank you

Just as well you aren't in the working world with such a rigid childcare arrangement.

I am a feminist. I just don't agree with you. That's allowed in the feminism board, right?

I think the issue of access to university education affects women in many different circumstances, and demanding that modules be tailored to the circumstances of one subset of women is not ideal.

I think that if the idea takes hold that you can't expect women to do anything after 5 pm because they probably have to be home with their kids, that is not helpful for women overall.

This is a reasonable debate to be having among feminists. We're allowed to disagree, we're not here to just be cheerleaders.

yes i agree, we can disagree that this is a femist issue.

Plenty of students are carers. Or at my university in London, commute, even when young, due to costs and also family presures not to live away from them. The timetable is often awkward for us commutters with something at 9am, then a huge gap until 4.

But the University teaching times are set out in advance, we are to be available for them and fit our other commitments around them (ie part time job).
i am trying to imagine a medical student complaining that they have to work past 5pm?

I guess I would say that as feminists, we can probably all agree that it's not fair that women bear the burden of childcare, and that a lack of childcare can be a huge obstacle to women trying to work, study and support their families

Where we might disagree is on how to resolve these issues

Personally I would rather see more and cheaper childcare options, better wages, and better enforcement of child maintenance, rather than promoting the idea that you can't expect women to be available after 5 pm

Personally I would rather see more and cheaper childcare options, better wages, and better enforcement of child maintenance, rather than promoting the idea that you can't expect women to be available after 5 pm

Agreed. But until that time, we need to ensure women who do face those problems can still access tertiary education.

That can be done through offering more electives that are during the day or ensuring that the one elective on offer is at an appropriate time.

Well done, OP. Enjoy the course.

I am a feminist. I just don't agree with you. That's allowed in the feminism board, right?

Absolutely!!! We're not fucking yes people! We all have different opinions!

But the rudeness on this thread is more in line with an AIBU thread!

This board is the one place on Mnet that I know no matter what is posted, the posters will be respectful and tolerant.

And again feel free to disagree!

@dreamingbohemian

Because they are at university full time. Like a job.. Monday to Friday..9 till 5.

Lol no. You think all students are sitting in classrooms 40 hours a week??

Most students I know who work do shift work, retail or hospitality or whatever. Even if they have a class every day, they arrange shifts around it. A 4.30 class is great because a lot of day shifts end at 4 so they can work that day. A 3 pm class usually sucks because it's tricky to do either a day or evening shift.

Women may bear the burden of childcare but women also make up the majority of low wage earners, what about their rights to education?

Yes, this.

No, students don't typically work FT 9 to 5 jobs, but a heck of them work shifts which they have to arrange around whatever classes they happen to have. That applies to mature and young students.

The times for classes can be shitty for everyone. Almost everyone sometimes has to figure out how to fit in a class that doesn't easily jive with the rest of their life.

I'd be interested to know what kind of schools people went to who never had an evening class. I had that when I was a trade school, and I've seen people in commercial programs in that situation. But universities, no, especially smaller departments, or ones where many of the teaching staff also work at real jobs.

@GreekTragedy

I am a feminist. I just don't agree with you. That's allowed in the feminism board, right?

Absolutely!!! We're not fucking yes people! We all have different opinions!

But the rudeness on this thread is more in line with an AIBU thread!

This board is the one place on Mnet that I know no matter what is posted, the posters will be respectful and tolerant.

And again feel free to disagree!

TBH I find the premise pretty shocking and I think a lot of posters do. The idea that things (work, school, etc) should never be scheduled after 5 pm because it would disadvantage single women, and somehow schools should change their class plans, is not just a something that will affect this question.

What happens when the OP is working in a job and wants her boss not to send her on day trips, or wants women to be advantaged in terms of choosing shifts so they can get kids at school. Because on the face of it, you could use the same logic. This idea that it only is going to apply to education is kind of bogus, or at least no one here has made any argument why you couldn't use the act to make the very same claim in that scenario.

I'm well aware of the difficulties of childcare, I've ad to figure out evening childcare when my husband worked away, and for that matter my mum was a single mother working shifts as a nurse. It's hard.

But lots of things include evening hours, including most universities. A better initiative would be to see what kinds of help for childcare might be found at the university, be it formalized, or not. Lots of universities have job centers with students who would be very keen for a once a week babysitting gig, for example.

there is also an assumption that Universities will have to consider which modules are "for the girls" and which are "for the boys" in order to decide how to allocate the times of them?

@burnoutbabe

there is also an assumption that Universities will have to consider which modules are "for the girls" and which are "for the boys" in order to decide how to allocate the times of them?

Yes I don't like this either

There is already a massive gender divide in my field, in terms of who takes which modules, we are trying to reduce this, not reinforce it

@burnoutbabe

there is also an assumption that Universities will have to consider which modules are "for the girls" and which are "for the boys" in order to decide how to allocate the times of them?

That, or just never do evening things? Which might require more infrastructure and losing certain teaching staff.

But then, you could also argue that less formalized parts of university life, which can also be important for success in some courses, should not happen in the evening hours when fewer single mums would be available.

In general, I think these kinds of indirect discrimination approaches can be very problematic. It can be really useful to consider how certain groups might be disadvantaged in ways you might not expect, in order to find solutions. But at the same time you get this emphasis on enforcing a uniformity of outcome that can be unrealistic, fails to address the real problems, and also have a lot of unexpected consequences.

no evening things would mean certain courses could not be fitted into a timetable, meaning students have less choice overall.

I am doing a module that is 6pm every week, i can choose not to do it and pick something else but timetabling issues and availability of staff and buildings means its either then or in fact not available at all.

@PurpleOkapi

So instead of "indirectly discriminating" against people who can't be arsed to arrange after-hours childcare for the children they chose to have, they're now indirectly discriminating against people who work full-time during the day. Why is that better?

Also, having children by definition requires the participation of both sexes. Not providing childcare doesn't discriminate against anyone. Unless you're the Virgin Mary, those children didn't spontaneously spring into being just because you're female.

It isn’t those that create children who are unable to attend lectures when childcare isn’t available it’s those who look after children and, especially, lone parents. In the UK that is predominantly women.

And why is better not to discriminate against women than against the set of people who work full time during the day (and so would not be able to be on the course the OP is on anyway)? BEcause our discrimination laws are set up not to stop any set of people ever not having access to anything but to stop historical, widespread discrimination that lowers the life chances of marginalised groups. Full time working isn’t a protected characteristic because full time workers generally don’t have a hard time making the most of life compared to those who aren’t full time workers.

@burnoutbabe

there is also an assumption that Universities will have to consider which modules are "for the girls" and which are "for the boys" in order to decide how to allocate the times of them?

Unless the course only had men on it, they would be discriminating regardless of how much the course was “for the boys”.

The university could address this by offering childcare for all their contact hours if they want to go outside of regularly available provision. It doesn’t have to be a matter of limiting the hours they offer classes.

Well done, OP on getting them to reconsider their position with mothers in mind. It’s a shame you hade to point to the EA to get them to really think about it, but maybe it will get them looking more holistically at how they do timetabling and accommodate marginalised groups.

@titchy

Do you really think the university would have made these changes if they didn't have to and they were able to defend themselves in respect to a query about indirect discrimination??

Honestly? Yes. For an easy way out which doesn't mean they have to pay a solicitor and risk a court case. Few unis can afford that at the moment.

The easy way out is very much to give in rather than challenge this very weak claim.

The fact that your university caved does not mean they genuinely agree that it's discriminatory for them to have evening classes. It means they would rather inconvenience a class full of students than go through 500 rounds of arguing about it with you

Caving in also happens in the workplace too.

I wonder when the OP finishes her course and starts work will she be one of those women (and it always is a woman) who thinks she gets first call on taking all her holidays during the school holidays because after all anyone without children can always take January or November and time off at Christmas isn't important if you don't have children.

@GreekTragedy

I'm sorry OP some of the posters from AIBU have accidentally wandered into the the feminist board.

Anyway ignore them and well done!

Could you be any more patronising? So much for the oft vaunted claim "it's not a hive mind"

God is this still going?

Including
Full time university courses often have evening lectures
What about those studying the (full time!) Uni course around a full time job?
This does not qualify as indirect discrimination and the university made the wrong decision no question
OP is self centred, unpleasant, entitled, has certainly ruined things for all classmates
I'm sure I've missed loads!

That's I think a fairly standard societal reaction when a woman exercises her rights.

Nice to see it on the Feminism board!

'The idea that things (work, school, etc) should never be scheduled after 5 pm because it would disadvantage single women, and somehow schools should change their class plans, is not just a something that will affect this question.'

Eh?

Your work hours are generally in your contract. If work want you to work out of hours generally they ask if you can do it and if nice understand if you can't.

I don't know any schools that schedule classes outside of school hours.. optional activities sure. Detention?
Are there schools that say this term French is timetabled for 530? I've never heard of it.

This is a bog standard full time uni course. As generally attended by school leavers.

It's Mon-Fri 9- 5 type situation.

I don't know anyone at uni who had outside hours in their timetable

Feels like I'm order to tell the OP she has made the cardinal error of pointing out that evenings weren't expected by anyone and given ft daytime 9-5, it caused issues which could amount to indirect discrimination around a protected characteristic.

Lots of points are being raised that cite extremely unlikely situations. Like people somehow studying ft and also working ft.

It's been interesting that's for sure!