Uni indirectly discriminating

[Watermelonsugarhi]

Just came on here to rant. I'm a mature student (30s) and also a lone parent. I opted to do a gender module and they ironically put that module outside of childcare hours, 4.30pm-6.30pm.

No one would listen to me and I was not taken seriously until i got advise from the equality advisory service. They advised I was being indirectly discriminated against because of my sex.
They gave me a template letter to fill out stating that the uni has a duty to follow the Equalities Act 2010 and not discriminate.

Well ever since i've sent it, a rocket has gone up their bum and suddenly they can change the times of the module. I also received a big apology.

Why did it have to come to sending a stern letter quoting the equalities act for them to do something. It makes me so so angry. The Uni claims its all inclusive but actually they don't think about mature students especially parents.

[Mumteedum]

Our uni will release the timetable generally a couple weeks ahead of starting. Although it is supposed to be 'student led" this is a mystery to most staff. We are asked for our availability ahead of time. These will be for part time staff, staff with caring responsibilities etc. They will then x ref the requested room type plus all the other permeatations, such as the different courses that can access that module so they don't clash, physical resource availability etc. I sincerely doubt anyone ever thinks "this module will be mainly female students and there may be a single parent". What I'm trying to say is that it was not deliberate, and perhaps it is good to raise it as it could be useful for students in particular circumstances to have consideration but honestly, them agreeing after the fact is not an indicator that they think they've done anything wrong or that they will change processes. It is an indicator that they don't want a complaint or bad NSS score.

Ours will always prioritize mandatory modules for daytime slots so optionals are often evenings and used to be until 9.15pm! (We try and schedule ours to be 7.30pm latest)

[NumberTheory]

*hear

[NumberTheory]

I'm sorry to her that Watermelon. I hope you can find another module that will be interesting.

[Watermelonsugarhi]

Just to update everyone. And the people who were going at me will be happy to know they have not changed the time of the module.

[dratalanta]

I’m sympathetic to both OP and the other students who may have been inconvenienced by the university’s response.

The problem is that universities try to advertise courses designed for full-time students as also being suitable for study in part-time mode. For some part-time students this works well, but for students who are part-time because they are juggling around a full-time job, this is a big problem. Universities devise these compromise slots like 4.30pm in the hope that those with jobs can leave work a little early that day and that students who want to study 9-5 won’t complain too much about having to stay till 6.30.

Eventually the holdout universities still using this system are going to have to accept - as many already have - that if they want to offer courses accessible to out-of-hours students then those students need their own classes in slots convenient to them, and that students studying in full-time mode or in part-time working-hours mode can’t be expected to attend out-of-hours slots.

[OperationDessertStorm]

Well done op!
I fully agree that 6 is a tricky time for parents. It’s when the daycare and after schools care near me stops.

A day course OR an evening course (when you have them settled with a babysitter) would be so much easier for parents.

Especially considering many of the students are women.

[Driftingblue]

Even what about those working part-time? Especially if the students have an on-campus job, those hours are often set for the entire course period. Change a class time and a student either has to drop the class or quit their job.

[orangejuicer]

A part of this would simply have been time tabling requirements (usually done centrally) and the facilities needed for it, so there's a bit here re the lecturer having not requested a different slot in the first place.

[burnoutbabe]

www.arcs.qmul.ac.uk/students/study/timetable/

www.southampton.ac.uk/studentadmin/timetabling/timetable-info.page

9-6 is the normal for most universities, not 9-5.

And as it says, you are expected to be available for these times.

[NumberTheory]

@NiceGerbil

God is this still going?

Including
Full time university courses often have evening lectures
What about those studying the (full time!) Uni course around a full time job?
This does not qualify as indirect discrimination and the university made the wrong decision no question
OP is self centred, unpleasant, entitled, has certainly ruined things for all classmates
I'm sure I've missed loads!

That's I think a fairly standard societal reaction when a woman exercises her rights.

Nice to see it on the Feminism board!

Those studying the ful time course around a full time day time job would already be fucked because so far all the classes have been within normal hours - that’s the OP’s point. She isn’t complaining about a course that was advertised as running in the evening. She’s complained that the course she was on that was running in normal hours has suddenly, and at short notice, timetabled a class that will be harder for women already on her course to attend than the men.

This is exactly why the legislation is there - so that women (or others with protected characteristics) aren’t pushed out of achieving because the provider takes the default white/male/able bodied/etc. view and doesn’t balance the relative impact of their decisions on the non-default groups.

[NiceGerbil]

'The idea that things (work, school, etc) should never be scheduled after 5 pm because it would disadvantage single women, and somehow schools should change their class plans, is not just a something that will affect this question.'

Eh?

Your work hours are generally in your contract. If work want you to work out of hours generally they ask if you can do it and if nice understand if you can't.

I don't know any schools that schedule classes outside of school hours.. optional activities sure. Detention?
Are there schools that say this term French is timetabled for 530? I've never heard of it.

This is a bog standard full time uni course. As generally attended by school leavers.

It's Mon-Fri 9- 5 type situation.

I don't know anyone at uni who had outside hours in their timetable

Feels like I'm order to tell the OP she has made the cardinal error of pointing out that evenings weren't expected by anyone and given ft daytime 9-5, it caused issues which could amount to indirect discrimination around a protected characteristic.

Lots of points are being raised that cite extremely unlikely situations. Like people somehow studying ft and also working ft.

It's been interesting that's for sure!

[NiceGerbil]

God is this still going?

Including
Full time university courses often have evening lectures
What about those studying the (full time!) Uni course around a full time job?
This does not qualify as indirect discrimination and the university made the wrong decision no question
OP is self centred, unpleasant, entitled, has certainly ruined things for all classmates
I'm sure I've missed loads!

That's I think a fairly standard societal reaction when a woman exercises her rights.

Nice to see it on the Feminism board!

[KimikosNightmare]

@GreekTragedy

I'm sorry OP some of the posters from AIBU have accidentally wandered into the the feminist board.

Anyway ignore them and well done!

Could you be any more patronising? So much for the oft vaunted claim "it's not a hive mind"

[KimikosNightmare]

@titchy

Do you really think the university would have made these changes if they didn't have to and they were able to defend themselves in respect to a query about indirect discrimination??

Honestly? Yes. For an easy way out which doesn't mean they have to pay a solicitor and risk a court case. Few unis can afford that at the moment.

The easy way out is very much to give in rather than challenge this very weak claim.

The fact that your university caved does not mean they genuinely agree that it's discriminatory for them to have evening classes. It means they would rather inconvenience a class full of students than go through 500 rounds of arguing about it with you

Caving in also happens in the workplace too.

I wonder when the OP finishes her course and starts work will she be one of those women (and it always is a woman) who thinks she gets first call on taking all her holidays during the school holidays because after all anyone without children can always take January or November and time off at Christmas isn't important if you don't have children.

[NumberTheory]

The university could address this by offering childcare for all their contact hours if they want to go outside of regularly available provision. It doesn’t have to be a matter of limiting the hours they offer classes.

Well done, OP on getting them to reconsider their position with mothers in mind. It’s a shame you hade to point to the EA to get them to really think about it, but maybe it will get them looking more holistically at how they do timetabling and accommodate marginalised groups.

[NumberTheory]

@burnoutbabe

there is also an assumption that Universities will have to consider which modules are "for the girls" and which are "for the boys" in order to decide how to allocate the times of them?

Unless the course only had men on it, they would be discriminating regardless of how much the course was “for the boys”.

[NumberTheory]

@PurpleOkapi

So instead of "indirectly discriminating" against people who can't be arsed to arrange after-hours childcare for the children they chose to have, they're now indirectly discriminating against people who work full-time during the day. Why is that better?

Also, having children by definition requires the participation of both sexes. Not providing childcare doesn't discriminate against anyone. Unless you're the Virgin Mary, those children didn't spontaneously spring into being just because you're female.

It isn’t those that create children who are unable to attend lectures when childcare isn’t available it’s those who look after children and, especially, lone parents. In the UK that is predominantly women.

And why is better not to discriminate against women than against the set of people who work full time during the day (and so would not be able to be on the course the OP is on anyway)? BEcause our discrimination laws are set up not to stop any set of people ever not having access to anything but to stop historical, widespread discrimination that lowers the life chances of marginalised groups. Full time working isn’t a protected characteristic because full time workers generally don’t have a hard time making the most of life compared to those who aren’t full time workers.

[burnoutbabe]

no evening things would mean certain courses could not be fitted into a timetable, meaning students have less choice overall.

I am doing a module that is 6pm every week, i can choose not to do it and pick something else but timetabling issues and availability of staff and buildings means its either then or in fact not available at all.

[LobsterNapkin]

@burnoutbabe

there is also an assumption that Universities will have to consider which modules are "for the girls" and which are "for the boys" in order to decide how to allocate the times of them?

That, or just never do evening things? Which might require more infrastructure and losing certain teaching staff.

But then, you could also argue that less formalized parts of university life, which can also be important for success in some courses, should not happen in the evening hours when fewer single mums would be available.

In general, I think these kinds of indirect discrimination approaches can be very problematic. It can be really useful to consider how certain groups might be disadvantaged in ways you might not expect, in order to find solutions. But at the same time you get this emphasis on enforcing a uniformity of outcome that can be unrealistic, fails to address the real problems, and also have a lot of unexpected consequences.

[dreamingbohemian]

@burnoutbabe

there is also an assumption that Universities will have to consider which modules are "for the girls" and which are "for the boys" in order to decide how to allocate the times of them?

Yes I don't like this either

There is already a massive gender divide in my field, in terms of who takes which modules, we are trying to reduce this, not reinforce it

[burnoutbabe]

there is also an assumption that Universities will have to consider which modules are "for the girls" and which are "for the boys" in order to decide how to allocate the times of them?

[LobsterNapkin]

@GreekTragedy

I am a feminist. I just don't agree with you. That's allowed in the feminism board, right?

Absolutely!!! We're not fucking yes people! We all have different opinions!

But the rudeness on this thread is more in line with an AIBU thread!

This board is the one place on Mnet that I know no matter what is posted, the posters will be respectful and tolerant.

And again feel free to disagree!

TBH I find the premise pretty shocking and I think a lot of posters do. The idea that things (work, school, etc) should never be scheduled after 5 pm because it would disadvantage single women, and somehow schools should change their class plans, is not just a something that will affect this question.

What happens when the OP is working in a job and wants her boss not to send her on day trips, or wants women to be advantaged in terms of choosing shifts so they can get kids at school. Because on the face of it, you could use the same logic. This idea that it only is going to apply to education is kind of bogus, or at least no one here has made any argument why you couldn't use the act to make the very same claim in that scenario.

I'm well aware of the difficulties of childcare, I've ad to figure out evening childcare when my husband worked away, and for that matter my mum was a single mother working shifts as a nurse. It's hard.

But lots of things include evening hours, including most universities. A better initiative would be to see what kinds of help for childcare might be found at the university, be it formalized, or not. Lots of universities have job centers with students who would be very keen for a once a week babysitting gig, for example.

[LobsterNapkin]

@dreamingbohemian

Because they are at university full time. Like a job.. Monday to Friday..9 till 5.

Lol no. You think all students are sitting in classrooms 40 hours a week??

Most students I know who work do shift work, retail or hospitality or whatever. Even if they have a class every day, they arrange shifts around it. A 4.30 class is great because a lot of day shifts end at 4 so they can work that day. A 3 pm class usually sucks because it's tricky to do either a day or evening shift.

Women may bear the burden of childcare but women also make up the majority of low wage earners, what about their rights to education?

Yes, this.

No, students don't typically work FT 9 to 5 jobs, but a heck of them work shifts which they have to arrange around whatever classes they happen to have. That applies to mature and young students.

The times for classes can be shitty for everyone. Almost everyone sometimes has to figure out how to fit in a class that doesn't easily jive with the rest of their life.

I'd be interested to know what kind of schools people went to who never had an evening class. I had that when I was a trade school, and I've seen people in commercial programs in that situation. But universities, no, especially smaller departments, or ones where many of the teaching staff also work at real jobs.

[GreekTragedy]

I am a feminist. I just don't agree with you. That's allowed in the feminism board, right?

Absolutely!!! We're not fucking yes people! We all have different opinions!

But the rudeness on this thread is more in line with an AIBU thread!

This board is the one place on Mnet that I know no matter what is posted, the posters will be respectful and tolerant.

And again feel free to disagree!