Uni indirectly discriminating

[Watermelonsugarhi]

Just came on here to rant. I'm a mature student (30s) and also a lone parent. I opted to do a gender module and they ironically put that module outside of childcare hours, 4.30pm-6.30pm.

No one would listen to me and I was not taken seriously until i got advise from the equality advisory service. They advised I was being indirectly discriminated against because of my sex.
They gave me a template letter to fill out stating that the uni has a duty to follow the Equalities Act 2010 and not discriminate.

Well ever since i've sent it, a rocket has gone up their bum and suddenly they can change the times of the module. I also received a big apology.

Why did it have to come to sending a stern letter quoting the equalities act for them to do something. It makes me so so angry. The Uni claims its all inclusive but actually they don't think about mature students especially parents.

'Just because someone put a thread in feminism and believes that they are correct does not mean that they are, in fact, correct.'

Well given the university in question immediately said.

Oh shit you're right we'll sort it no arguments.

Kind of points in the direction that the OP had a pretty solid point.

@NiceGerbil

No people at a standard full time university course work full time.

Because they're at university studying full time.

No? I mean. I thought that was pretty well known.

You've got to be kidding.

@NiceGerbil

No people at a standard full time university course work full time.

Because they're at university studying full time.

No? I mean. I thought that was pretty well known.

It's not that uncommon, unfortunately, and lots (most, maybe) work part time in the day, including shifts.

People at university often have to juggle to fit courses around work, and also work around courses, and childcare as well if they have kids. It can be tricky for everyone. By their nature university schedules are fragmented and change on a regular basis, and often require flexible childcare.

'And a good number could tie it to parenthood, having an infant, being poor and needing to work, belonging to a marginalized racial group, belonging to a specific religious group, whatever. How that plays out in their lives will vary significantly too.'

Your argument then is that-

University fees should be reduced or abolished / funds for those who can't afford/ things like that?

And

Universities that provide full time courses to students who are massively generally school leavers. Should make their (full time) courses more flexible to allow for those who have other commitments during the day? The logistics and burden on lecturers and resources would be huge. You think that's workable?

Are you really suggesting that whatever a university says about equality outcomes and legislation is going to be correct? I think we have quite a lot of reason to think that other things are often driving these decisions.

I don't think I ever had a year in my four years of university that I didn't have at least one evening class.

'
People at university often have to juggle to fit courses around work, and also work around courses, and childcare as well if they have kids. It can be tricky for everyone. By their nature university schedules are fragmented and change on a regular basis, and often require flexible childcare.'

Do they? Maybe it varies by subject?

I'm very surprised. For the subjects where full time pretty much means full time. How does that work?

It's common for school leavers to have the challenges you mention? When they head off to university?

Why are timetables changing so often now? They never used to. The upheaval for allocation of spaces, availability of any supporting staff, provision of materials, not to mention a nightmare for the lecturers.

Do you know why this is common now?

OP situation was clear indirect discrimination under the definition.

And yet as an outsider with little info you believe that they made the wrong decision.

That's.. bold!

@NiceGerbil

'And a good number could tie it to parenthood, having an infant, being poor and needing to work, belonging to a marginalized racial group, belonging to a specific religious group, whatever. How that plays out in their lives will vary significantly too.'

Your argument then is that-

University fees should be reduced or abolished / funds for those who can't afford/ things like that?

And

Universities that provide full time courses to students who are massively generally school leavers. Should make their (full time) courses more flexible to allow for those who have other commitments during the day? The logistics and burden on lecturers and resources would be huge. You think that's workable?

I'm not sure how you got that from what I said.

My argument is this: man and women who go to university come from a variety of backgrounds and circumstances. They have varied lives. What is most convenient for some will be less so for others.

People planning to attend university full time will sometimes find that they need to plan to attend classes at times that are less convenient for them personally. That could involve things like finding alternate transportation, moving their shifts, changing jobs, finding childcare, finding eldercare, etc. In some cases they may find they won't be able to take a particular class.

There is no way a university is going to be able to accommodate every students circumstances every time.

@NiceGerbil

OP situation was clear indirect discrimination under the definition.

And yet as an outsider with little info you believe that they made the wrong decision.

That's.. bold!

Maybe not, given about half the posters, including the university lecturer, seem to think it's suspect.

I haven't noticed that you are always so keen to affirm the decisions of universities, yourself.

Who thinks University courses regularly include evening hours? My University never has evening hours except when it’s a tutorial with multiple options to sign up for, and we request the specific time slot. Mandatory evening hours are for evening classes, i would agree if someone signed up for night school and complained the hours were not compatible with childcare they are an idiot. You’re entitled to expect reasonable day time hours with your enrolment. Just like if you take a regular desk job you can say I can’t do a 7pm meeting.

SweetBabyCheeses99
Yeah I don’t get it? A single parent could just as easily be a man as a woman. Is the 1630-1830 teaching slot part of the normal Uni timetable? If so, what do you do if other modules are scheduled then?
Just wanted to highlight this person who thinks that because in theory men could equally be single parents childcare isn’t a woman’s issue. Because in REALITY very few men are single parents with childcare responsibilities.

Lobster you haven't answered any of my questions.

The vast majority of students are school leavers without caring responsibilities.

If they work it is evenings and/ or weekends.

Because they are at university full time. Like a job.. Monday to Friday..9 till 5.

Yes sure some courses you might have enough time out of lectures to work Tuesday afternoons or whatever. Given your oh well frequent timetable changes and throwing in evening classes will screw them over.

You also raised a load of groups that could need flexibility but never answered on what that means in practice re fees and resources.

If a parent needs to study and they need evening classes then they specifically choose a course that runs at night time.

A daytime course shouldn't be running until 6.30 pm.

It's not exactly rocket science to work out that someone who is attending a day course and is a parent needs to use childcare, and childcare that runs beyond 6 pm is very rare. One that runs beyond 6.30 pm and long enough to give the parent time to get from the course provider to the care provider to pick them up (so 7-7.30 pm?) would be as rare as hens teeth.

So piss off with the "you might have made things harder for other parents" crap.

I'm a mature student and my uni runs lectures from 9am - 9pm and that is clearly stated on their website.
I can 100% see where the OP is coming from but I am also a single mum and my DS is currently educated at home (due to various SEND needs). One of my modules starts at 5pm this semester and this is perfect for me because of my personal childcare issues. If it then got changed to a slot earlier in the day I would not be able to attend, so would that be discriminatory towards me as a single parent?

People like OP are the reason sexism still exists. Having both children and a career means a person (of either sex and any gender) will sometimes have to arrange (and pay for!) childcare. It also means that if they can't or won't do that, there will be things they'll have to miss out on that they'd have enjoyed, or that would have been professionally beneficial. Someone who doesn't reason that out before committing him or herself to both things is at best extremely careless and irresponsible, and at worst too stupid to function in an adult capacity.

Someone who's done that and then goes on to demand that everyone else's schedule be changed to suit them, because God forbid being a parent should ever inconvenience them, is being an entitled twat. Someone who uses "I'm a woman!" as a justification for being an entitled twat is telling others that being a woman is synonymous with being an entitled twat. Ergo, if someone doesn't want to work with an entitled twat, they shouldn't hire any women. If a man dared to even hint at thinking that, everyone would rip him to shreds for being a misogynist, and rightly so.

@ClaryFairchild

If a parent needs to study and they need evening classes then they specifically choose a course that runs at night time.

A daytime course shouldn't be running until 6.30 pm.

It's not exactly rocket science to work out that someone who is attending a day course and is a parent needs to use childcare, and childcare that runs beyond 6 pm is very rare. One that runs beyond 6.30 pm and long enough to give the parent time to get from the course provider to the care provider to pick them up (so 7-7.30 pm?) would be as rare as hens teeth.

So piss off with the "you might have made things harder for other parents" crap.

The only other parents affected would be those who intentionally signed up for and chose to remain in a course at that time. Just because OP couldn't be bothered to check the schedule and arrange childcare beforehand doesn't mean no one else did - that level of irresponsibility isn't typical of any of the single parents I studied with. As for childcare being impossible to find after 6, did every single teenager suddenly decide that they no longer want to babysit for some extra cash?

And if it's a two-parent situation, the other parent is most likely home at that time, whereas moving it to working hours would necessitate childcare because the other parent would be at work or studying themselves.

@NiceGerbil

Lobster you haven't answered any of my questions.

The vast majority of students are school leavers without caring responsibilities.

If they work it is evenings and/ or weekends.

Because they are at university full time. Like a job.. Monday to Friday..9 till 5.

Yes sure some courses you might have enough time out of lectures to work Tuesday afternoons or whatever. Given your oh well frequent timetable changes and throwing in evening classes will screw them over.

You also raised a load of groups that could need flexibility but never answered on what that means in practice re fees and resources.

It's true that most full-time students have neither full-time jobs during normal working hours, nor caring responsibilities. But if the fact that most don't have full-time day jobs means that uni schedules shouldn't be rearranged to accommodate the few who do, then it should also be true that because most don't have caring responsibilities, uni schedules shouldn't be rearranged to accommodate those who do. I don't see any reason to prioritize older single parents over teenagers who need to support themselves and their families. If anything, it should be the opposite: 30-something-year-old OP had far more control over the choices that led to this situation than the average 17-year-old who's just trying to keep a roof over their own head.

It's true that most full-time students have neither full-time jobs during normal working hours, nor caring responsibilities. But if the fact that most don't have full-time day jobs means that uni schedules shouldn't be rearranged to accommodate the few who do, then it should also be true that because most don't have caring responsibilities, uni schedules shouldn't be rearranged to accommodate those who do. I don't see any reason to prioritize older single parents over teenagers who need to support themselves and their families. If anything, it should be the opposite: 30-something-year-old OP had far more control over the choices that led to this situation than the average 17-year-old who's just trying to keep a roof over their own head.
I see. Most don’t have wheelchairs so uni rooms should be rearranged, most don’t …. All of these things are not equal in the eyes of the law, which is exactly the ops point.

@PurpleOkapi

People like OP are the reason sexism still exists. Having both children and a career means a person (of either sex and any gender) will sometimes have to arrange (and pay for!) childcare. It also means that if they can't or won't do that, there will be things they'll have to miss out on that they'd have enjoyed, or that would have been professionally beneficial. Someone who doesn't reason that out before committing him or herself to both things is at best extremely careless and irresponsible, and at worst too stupid to function in an adult capacity.

Someone who's done that and then goes on to demand that everyone else's schedule be changed to suit them, because God forbid being a parent should ever inconvenience them, is being an entitled twat. Someone who uses "I'm a woman!" as a justification for being an entitled twat is telling others that being a woman is synonymous with being an entitled twat. Ergo, if someone doesn't want to work with an entitled twat, they shouldn't hire any women. If a man dared to even hint at thinking that, everyone would rip him to shreds for being a misogynist, and rightly so.

I think the only response to this is, in true MumsNet fashion, ‘are you on glue’?

The Equality Act is about ensuring equal acces. That is something I fully support.

bangs head against wall

Thank you to the posters who get it.

To clarify for @lobsternapkin nobody works a full time day job. It's full time study! I have something on my timetable every day in the day.
My DS childcare finishes at 6. Like most other childcare do.
I "didn't bother to check" isn't correct. The timetable got released last week and I said something straight away.
For you posters having a go, you are clearly missing the point of the equalities act where things should be EQUAL weather your race, religion, sex etc.

@ClaryFairchild

If a parent needs to study and they need evening classes then they specifically choose a course that runs at night time.

A daytime course shouldn't be running until 6.30 pm.

It's not exactly rocket science to work out that someone who is attending a day course and is a parent needs to use childcare, and childcare that runs beyond 6 pm is very rare. One that runs beyond 6.30 pm and long enough to give the parent time to get from the course provider to the care provider to pick them up (so 7-7.30 pm?) would be as rare as hens teeth.

So piss off with the "you might have made things harder for other parents" crap.

This! Why are people so hell bent on insisting other imaginary people are losing out. They're not! On a FT course as you say, 6:30 is very unreasonable. This leads me to believe their aren't many/any other parents on OP's course.

I had this scenario too and I had to leave the lecture 3/4 way through

Ok, but you sign up to do a uni course. Lectures can be scheduled to start at 9 and finish at 6:30, no matter the module or content of the module. When you pay your fees you sign a contract and the contract states the hours you need to be available/the general times of the uni. So you've entered into an agreement.

The uni offers you teaching you agree to attending and learning.

Nothing about this is discriminatory.

I don't get it.

If they suddenly put the lectures out of hours, I'd get it more, but this is just normal uni timetabling isn't it?

@JuneOsborne

Ok, but you sign up to do a uni course. Lectures can be scheduled to start at 9 and finish at 6:30, no matter the module or content of the module. When you pay your fees you sign a contract and the contract states the hours you need to be available/the general times of the uni. So you've entered into an agreement.

The uni offers you teaching you agree to attending and learning.

Nothing about this is discriminatory.

I don't get it.

If they suddenly put the lectures out of hours, I'd get it more, but this is just normal uni timetabling isn't it?

Exactly. I have had lectures up to 6.30 or 7 regularly. Timetables have had to change massively due to covid and getting bigger rooms or now holding tutorials twice, in person then online. You get what times you are given.

Trying to pick my modules this year (Russel group) and the amount of potential clashes is huge so you won't get all your top choices. They have made it clear timetables can't be changed.

So yes we have picked all our modules to work within the times with no clashes. If they moved it for one person that would be worse. We have worked within the rules we signed up for.

If 2 core classes clashed then they would have to change it but that isn't what is happening here.

Because they are at university full time. Like a job.. Monday to Friday..9 till 5.

Lol no. You think all students are sitting in classrooms 40 hours a week??

Most students I know who work do shift work, retail or hospitality or whatever. Even if they have a class every day, they arrange shifts around it. A 4.30 class is great because a lot of day shifts end at 4 so they can work that day. A 3 pm class usually sucks because it's tricky to do either a day or evening shift.

Women may bear the burden of childcare but women also make up the majority of low wage earners, what about their rights to education?

Good on you OP, I've been a single working parent who was also studying and the stress of trying to juggle those three things was immense. And I have only ever come across women doing it, raising and financially supporting a child on your own and trying to better your situation. Never met a man ever who has been in that situation (far too much selfless hard work quite frankly). Unless you have done it yourself, you have no comprehension of the lack of choices. And if we cant support the weakest and most vulnerable in society, what kind of society are we? That's what the equality act is about.

Finishing at 6.30pm is impossible for any single parent, after school care is over by then, you still need time to get there, unless you're wealthy enough to have a nanny who drives (haha) or family who can help there is no way to manage it.

I bet your gender class is mostly, if not all women too. That's what they used to call women studies, before it was decided women was actually a set of stereotypes and a clothing and hair style, rather than a sex class with specific needs.

And if there were competing needs from another student the university would be aware. Obviously there weren't as the time was changed.

@rattlemehearties

Look into Athena Swan accreditation. Most unis want to work to it now and they are not supposed to put lectures/seminars at that kind of awkward time for childcare! Definitely nothing after 5pm

If that was the case no uni who had classes in the evening would get AS award - which isn't the case.